Blakes7 February 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

80 participants
929 discussions

Fanfic vs literature (Was Re: [B7L] Sally-speak)
by Tavia Chalcraft 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Shane wrote: >Bit of a difference between Henry James and Joe Fanwriter. I've not yet read fanfiction that's as good in my opinion as the authors I consider great in literature (though I'm hoping!). But I've certainly read quite a lot (and published some in TTBA) that's way better than the average novels published in the past 5 years or so. Just because it's fanfiction doesn't automatically make it substandard (think of Wide Sargasso Sea). Just because it's amateur doesn't mean it's substandard (many 'great' authors don't/didn't make a living out of writing). The answer to bad fanfiction (and there's certainly some of that around) is to write or encourage others to write better fanfiction, not to assume that the whole genre isn't worth reading and, moreover, to proselytise your rather negative view. Tavia http://www.viragene.com/

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Re: [B7L] The Gospel
by Mac4781＠aol.com 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Dana (quoting Fiona): > > -H/C fiction is a great way of exploring the more intimate side of a > > character, and neither it nor slash particularly offend anyone > FC exists precisely because slash offends many people--I don't think > anyone on Lysator (whether s/he personally likes slash) would deny > the potential for offense. H/c is less controversial but again I don't think > it is universally valued And that's precisely why I post more to FC than to the lyst. Because I don't want to have to worry about offending those whose tastes might differ from mine. Carol Mc

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Brit-Char-Speak
by Dana Shilling 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

This comes from an article by Mimi Kramer in The New York Press ("Unstressed Syllables," February 21 p. 22). It's about Jim Dale's recording of the Harry Potter books, but I think it has some interesting implications for some of our threads. "The recordings are revelatory--albeit in a small way, and mostly of things having to do with English and non-English values. Examples: Scars in the Potter books (even "psychic" ones) are essentially something to jest at; they're either useful or funny, but you might not be assured of this without hearing the stoic solemnity with which Dale introduces a description of some of the pains of a "wizarding" childhood [...] This is a fundamentally English attitude toward suffering. ALso integral to the books but fundamentally un- English is the notion of self-determination, that who you are should be a function of what you do and say.

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Re: The Romance of Hijacking (was Re: [B7L] Sally-speak)
by Fiona Moore 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

----- Original Message ----- From: Mistral <mistral(a)centurytel.net> > Fiona Moore wrote: > > > I think Neil answered that one better than I could. He's right, it *is* > > awfully offputting when you're gearing up for a rapier thrust to open a post > > which seems to be on the same topic but isn't. The reverse equivalent might > > be me going into a thread on red leather trousers and saying "That's > > intriguing. Have you considered deconstructing these trousers as a signifier > > of Lacanian potency, with regard to Derrida's belief that deconstruction > > cannot exist outside of the text?" A lot of people would flame me, and for > > good reason. > > <g> Are you _sure_ a lot of people would flame you? 'Cause I can't > imagine that. I think it might actually be amusing in itself, besides > spawning a serious discussion. Perhaps not flame, but they might respond with bafflement :). Or reply to the effect of, "what the bloody blue blazes does Derrida have to do with Avon's religion?" It's a bit interesting that it never *does* seem to go silly-to-serious. > Tossing a bit of whimsy into a serious thread strikes me as a perfectly > natural thing to do - I am never more serious than when I'm joking. > Humour can be both a way to make a point, and to defuse tension; it's > long been a technique in both debate and education for those reasons. That, though, is on-topic humour. E.g. Una's response to Shane's "trousers" post, which, though humourous, makes the point that Una a) thinks this morality is Victorian, b) thinks Shane is making a fuss over nothing (although I may have interpreted her wrong). This *does* make an educational point. But, to take Neil's fictitious example, suddenly talking about Travis' knob in the middle of a discussion on The Definition of Fascism doesn't really add much to the discussion. > However, I do wish that headers would be changed when they've wandered > away from the topic - I don't do it very often, because I'm generally > not sure what the new topic is, and the few times I've done it, the > thread has either died or instantly mutated into something else, so > changing the subject didn't do much good. I'm afraid we're all a bit guilty of this-- guess we should take more care. > > The Greeks believed in five kinds of love, and that the noblest was Agape, > > or self-sacrificing love. I tend to see Blake and Avon's love as being > > Agape, not Eros. And Chris Boucher has said this as well. > > Looks more like Phileo with hints of Agape to me - you really cannot > have 'Blake' if it's Agape; and while I personally can't see it as Eros, > I can see how somebody who wanted to see Eros could read it as Phileo > tinged with Eros. Au contraire, I see "Blake" as a good example of Agape. Avon, after all, sacrifices his ship, his base, his position and his crew's lives for Blake, and, whether he himself dies or not at the end, he certainly shows himself willing to die on Blake's corpse. In earlier parts of the series (e.g. Terminal) Avon shows himself similarly willing to give up everything for the sake of a slim chance of finding Blake. For Blake's part, he is willing, in "Blake" to trust Avon despite the fact that his faith in human nature has taken a visible pounding, and in "Star One" he says that he has always trusted Avon, both of which suggest a sacrifical love (since Avon's behaviour thus far hasn't always suggested it's healthy to trust him); Avon, for his part, turns around and takes on the entire alien fleet on the strength of that. I can see Phileo elements in their relationship, it's true, but I can only see Eros inasmuch as Freud argued that any close emotional relationship has an erotic component-- which I think is debatable. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [B7L] Re: in calm discussion (was Deliverance)
by Fiona Moore 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> To: <blakes7(a)lists.lysator.liu.se> I said: > > But would you, if it had gone that way? Neil has made several rational, > > intelligent posts lately on the subject of why he considers H/C to resemble > > S/M. Very few people have actually posted in to say "OK, Neil, I see your > > point," or "OK, Neil, but you're overlooking..." > > Actually, I haven't said "Neil, yyou have a point", because I'm a > non-reader of H/C who started with the assumption it was a sort of S/M. > Since those who enjoy it have said it isn't, I've been trying to grasp > where the actual, primary appeal lies to them. Since I started out in > accord with those thinking it was S/M, I am more interested in > stretching my mind understand why it is not. Since the people who like > H/C have not said insulting things about those who aren't readers and > writers of it, I have listened to them with a more open mind than I > would if they were rude. Hm, debatable point... I actually saw a lot of the people who like h/c being at least as rude to Wendy as she was to them (you can argue that they were provoked, but I've said earlier that this doesn't excuse it to my mind). I also, as I said, saw a lot of people who liked h/c launcing into the discussion with categorical denials ("H/C is NOT S/M! BAD FIONA! BAD NEIL! NEVER SAY THIS IS SO!") or false analogies (Hamlet? Beautiful suffering? Can be played that way, but Hamlet can be played *any* way imaginable... bitter and unlikable... cold and rational... round the twist...). Which has, actually, made me even *less* kindly disposed to h/c as a genre than before. And anyway, if it *is* S/M, what of it? I'm given to understand that S/M is considered an acceptable form of sexual expression these days... that is, if the erotica shelf in the Oxford Waterstones is anything to go by... I'm a little surprised that no one has come in to say "Yes, it's S/M, and I *like* it!" Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: The Romance of Hijacking (was Re: [B7L] Sally-speak)
by Neil Faulkner 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

From: Mistral <mistral(a)centurytel.net> > Fiona Moore wrote: > >> The reverse equivalent might > > be me going into a thread on red leather trousers and saying "That's > > intriguing. Have you considered deconstructing these trousers as a signifier > > of Lacanian potency, with regard to Derrida's belief that deconstruction > > cannot exist outside of the text?" A lot of people would flame me, and for > > good reason. > > <g> Are you _sure_ a lot of people would flame you? 'Cause I can't > imagine that. Neither can I, actually. I would expect a remark to go ignored. You might get more mileage out of starting a new thread, along the lines of "All this talk about red leather trousers makes me wonder...", though I doubt it. > Tossing a bit of whimsy into a serious thread strikes me as a perfectly > natural thing to do - I am never more serious than when I'm joking. > Humour can be both a way to make a point, and to defuse tension; it's > long been a technique in both debate and education for those reasons. As I hope I've made clear enough by now, I can't argue with this. It's turning the thread *into* whimsy that gets me heated. Neil

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Re: [B7L] Re: Brit-char-speak
by Ashton7＠aol.com 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/22/01 4:43:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, N.Faulkner(a)tesco.net writes: << You know far more about fanfic than I ever will: do you see any evidence of US shows being 'Britannicised'? And if so, does it bother you? >> No, why should it? People write what they want to write. That's what fan fiction is basically about in the first place. They write what they are motivated to write. The only thing that I ever find jarring is British spelling... and I find that jarring even when it's fan fiction about a British show, simply because some of the words are spelled differently and it's like a bump in the road. It doesn't bother me, though. If I see British spelling in a story, I assume the writer was British (or European). Annie

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Re: [B7L] Sally-speak
by Natasa Tucev 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Sally, I'm too busy these days to even read the Lyst, let alone send my comments, but I feel obliged to respond to your post. I've joined only three or four months ago, so my impressions are still vague. Still, FWIW, I think you are one of the kindest, friendliest persons on this list. I enjoy reading your posts and find them witty and charming and I also think you are a very talented writer. You've a strong personality and you probably don't need this 'mental hug', but I send it to you anyway. As for the desire to write stories in which someone gets hurt (and I'm not immune to this, either) - I guess the shrinks would label it as a kind of regression, but I really don't think it should upset anyone. I'd rather say it's a case of our own neurosis curing us, a way to let off some steam. If you (I mean 'anyone') can find a way of presenting your private chimeras to the world without the world flinching, then good for you. Those who preach strict morality are much more likely to butcher someone in real life than those who try to come to terms with their irrational self. It is an important aspect of creative writing which should be recognized. Writing is self-healing, among other things. This goes for me too. I will not glorify such stories, but I will not condemn them, either. (BTW,in the long history of Shakespeare criticism, I can't recall a single critic who accused Shakespeare for making Hamlet suffer so much. For centuries the audience has experienced aesthetic pleasure in his suffering, and some would probably call it beautiful.) N.

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Re: [B7L] Wendy-speak
by Mac4781＠aol.com 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Fiona wrote: > Actually I didn't see too many people delurking. Carol, perhaps. Having once been one of the gabbiest members of the lyst, I was surprised to see me listed as delurker. But I suppose that's true based on my past year's rate of posting. I tend to post more to Freedom City these days. I'm active on the lyst in spurts. Carol Mc

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hurt/comfort (was Sally-speak)
by Mac4781＠aol.com 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Shane wrote: > Slash, hurt/comfort... whatever. Rewrite the sentence to read "...between > fan hurt-comfort fiction and Eng. Lit." and you still get the idea. Anyway, > we're still talking about what appears to be a transatlantic imposition on a > British series, which has been retconned back into the series itself. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. This h/c thread seems to be splitting off in many directions at once. It sounds like something I'd probably disagree with, but I don't want to assume that without more information. Are you objecting to the existence of slash and h/c? Are you objecting to Americans participating in a fandom that revolves around a series that originated in Britain? One of the reasons I've not wanted to participate in an h/c discussion is because I've been through these discussions before and never seen anything productive come out of them. While I have seen negatives: in that the discussions tend to stray to the judgmental. It's either something people enjoy or they don't. I don't have any desire to convert anyone to h/c fandom (and if I did, I'd send them a list of h/c stories to read rather than try to convert them through discussion of the subject). I don't care if others regard h/c to be S/M or thinly disguised slash or whatever. I like it and that's enough for me. Carol Mc

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Blakes7 February 2001