Blakes7 February 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

80 participants
929 discussions

Cyberpunk (Was: [B7L] Re: in calm discussion)
by Tavia Chalcraft 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

Neil wrote: >Rather than ask, "Why h/c?", let me turn it around and >try to explain "Why cyberpunk?" What exactly is cyberpunk, could you define it, give some examples ? It might help to have a few examples of B7 stories by a range of authors that you consider to be cyberpunk as well.... Tavia (one of whose post-Redemptive resolutions was read more science fiction)

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Re: [B7L] Servalan set it all up?
by Ashton7＠aol.com 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/28/01 10:06:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, N.Faulkner(a)tesco.net writes: << I don't go along with this at all. It seems too convenient, a way of letting Avon off the hook, and more importantly a convenient way of relieving Avon groupies of the problematic reconciliation of their groupiedom with the cold, hard fact that Avon shot the shit out of Blake. It wasn't his fault, it was all Servalan's doing, Blake is dead and Avon is innocent, hurrah! Also, I am less than impressed by the perennial fannish obsession with 'conditioning' as a cop out explanation for anything in the series that they're less than happy with. There are examples of such conditioning in the series, of course, most notably in VftP and Terminal, but they are made explicit and are plot-specific. >> Well, I don't think I said that Avon should be "let off the hook." I'm not really a proponent overall of the "Avon is innocent" theory. In fact, Leah and I have both long pointed out that it is ridiculous to constantly blame *Blake* for what Avon did. And a lot of fan fiction does some to do that. I can't count the number of times I've read fanfic where Blake survives Gauda Prime and spends all of his time *apologizing* to Avon for *making* him shoot him. And worries about Avon. And so on. I'm probably even guilty of writing a few stories like that myself in my early days of writing way back when. I was simply pointing out that is a completely valid possibility, especially what we SAW happening on Terminal, that Avon had been conditioned to kill Blake the moment he finally found him/saw him. And that is what happened, with apparently little rhyme or reason. Perhaps others don't agree with me that Avon seems startled when he pulls the trigger? Annie

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Re: [B7L] To apologise or not to apologise
by Ashton7＠aol.com 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/27/01 10:22:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, tavia(a)btinternet.com writes: << The only way I personally could absolve Avon would be if he were clinically insane at that point, and (not much wishing to get into this debate) I tend to the view that he is highly stressed, emotionally exhausted, but not insane. >> That's probably why so many fans over the years have speculated that Avon was suffering from traumatic stress or just plain crazy. And it also probably goes along with Neil's thoughts about fans wanting to somehow "excuse" Avon for shooting Blake. Myself, I always thought one of the most logical explanations of Avon doing what he did at Gauda Prime was that he had been programmed to do it when Servalan had him on Terminal. Not only does it explain Avon's itchy trigger finger, it also explains the look of total surprise he seems to have on his face as he fires over and over. I remember many American fans being quite surprised to hear from Paul Darrow at conventions that he himself never regarded Avon as crazy or stressed out in the 4th season. He gave the impression that he was given much more latitude to play the character the way *he* wanted to in the last season and what we saw was more his conception of the character. Some folks like that portrayal and some of the rest of us think he just seemed crazy (when compared to the Avon of earlier seasons). I can go with either interpretation, frankly, though. I love seeing the various different "takes" on it in fan fiction. Annie

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Re: [B7L] Servalan set it all up?
by Ashton7＠aol.com 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/28/01 2:08:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, ragan(a)sdc.org writes: << I agree with Neil, actually (again!). Conditioning is an interesting theme in B7, but it *can* be used in ways that feel like a bit of a cop-out to me. >> Yes, I can see that, too (I have, indeed, read many a story where it was used as the "cop-out"... the very reason why Avon should be forgiven TOTALLY for shooting Blake). I think it's interesting that as the fandom has grown and matured over the years, we see more and more stories where Avon *isn't* easily forgiven for what he did. This is certainly the more realistic approach to take. I think that what often happens in fan fiction is that people honestly want to feel good about the character they like and/or admire the most and they want to redeem him *somehow*. We see it all the time in Highlander fandom/fan fiction with the character of Methos (who has a very naughty past). Annie

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Re: [B7L] Servalan set it all up?
by Ashton7＠aol.com 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/28/01 12:31:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, stephend999(a)yahoo.co.uk writes: << But I don't see why Servalan would go to all of the trouble to condition him. After all she's just left him in a booby trapped base with a booby trapped ship on a planet that's just about to undergo serious seismic disturbances. She could hardly know that Dorian was going to convieniently show up and rescue him. >> Now, that's an interesting rebuttal. You're absolutely right. How could Servalan know that Avon was going to survive...? Hmmm. Well, in the beginning, was she intending to leave him behind on Terminal? Maybe she thought she'd take him with her? Or come back for him? (Not realizing that her transport--the Liberator---was about to fall apart?) I think there are ways to get around the problem (most of them probably qualify as convoluted). But, you do have a very good point. Annie

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Re: blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se>
by Betty Ragan 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

Neil wrote: > A death is a death is a death. Who killed whom is immaterial. What makes > Avon so special? What makes Blake so special? Avon killed plenty of other > people through the course of the series. Come to think of it, so did Blake. There is a difference, though, between killing someone who is an enemy and someone who is (or has been) your friend. Or comrade-in-arms, even, if you don't like to think of Avon and Blake as friends. Emotionally, there's a difference, and even someone who's fairly cold-blooded (as I think Avon generally is) about killing strangers and enemies is going to feel differently about killing someone with whom he's had a close relationship (whatever you percieve the nature of that relationship as being). Morally, you could argue that killing someone who is supposed to be your friend makes the action even worse: the crime of betrayal is added to the crime of murder. And Avon, in my reading of the character, is someone who is capable of carrying a lot of guilt over betrying someone or otherwise fatally letting them down (which seems to be the way he reacted to what he thought had happened with Anna). > Things fell apart in catastrophically short order, and someone > previously assumed to be a friend or at least ally (for all the sardonic > gibes previously aimed at him) suddenly appeared in the guise of an enemy > who seemed incapable of offering a coherent explanation for himself. Avon > was thrown onto the defensive, and with a gun forced into his hands by > immediately preceding events it should come as no great surprise that he > defended himself the way he did. It was a gut reaction permitted by > circumstance and opportunity. Not, by any means, the only action he could > have made, nor necessarily the best, but the imperative to act overrode > consideration of other possibilities. The decision to shoot was, I think, > both conscious and deliberate, but in his mind he was not shooting the Blake > he had known in the past and had hoped to find again, but a stranger who > had, albeit unwittingly, turned everything upside down amid chaotic and > stressful circumstances. I just wanted to say that, sentimental character-junkie that I am, this paragraph made me get all sniffly. -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Re: [B7L] The Killing of Sister Roj
by Mac4781＠aol.com 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

Tavia wrote: > Rewatching the end of 'Blake' just now, the thing > that actually disturbs me most is Avon shooting an unarmed and outnumbered > Klyn. I see that as relating to his reason for shooting Blake. When you are in a battlefield situation and possibly going to be outnumbered soon, take no prisoners. Avon's first contact on the base (that we know of) is seeing Tarrant under attack. Then Klyn calls for security. All evidence points to a hostile environment. I'm glad you mentioned Klyn, Switching the topic a little, I'm always surprised that Klyn and the man shot by Soolin are seldom mentioned in PGP fanfic, especially fanfic where Blake survives or where others from his GP base are part of the story. It's as if their deaths, or the attacks on them if they survived, aren't important. Even more of an aside, thanks to all for the many Redemption reports. They make for interesting reading. Carol Mc

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figures
by Judith Proctor 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

Ignore Richard's posting on missing orders for figures. Kelvin had the orders safely tucked away and we now know who ordered what <smile> Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

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Re: Deliverance "bait in the trap"
by Helen Krummenacker 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

Canonically, there is one statement to dispute that the idea was to have a "young attractive woman"; Meeghat said she had been waiting all her life. Not all her adult life. This suggests that, like the Dalai Lama, the greeter of the Lord is to be picked at a very early age. Before it would be known if she would be pretty as an adult, and performing duties while still too young to be atractive to any but a very despicable man. Generally, in such circumstances, a preist/preistess is supposed to hold their position not just from childhood on, but then also into later years. If this society operates the same way, there would only be a small time frame in which the attendant would be young and attractive.

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Re: [B7L] Hurt/Comfort and all that
by Ashton7＠aol.com 28 Feb '01

28 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/28/01 10:26:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, littles(a)lycos.co.uk writes: << And by the way, I'm rather bored by the way you keep harping about how long you've known Diane Gies. So what, you know a big-name fan. What do you want, a medal? Judging by the posts in my in-box, people just aren't impressed. >> Please, Shane. Talk about total distortion. The woman has hated my guts and conducted campaigns against me and my zines for years. I was hardly trying to "impress" anyone with the fact that I know who she is and I think you know that. Puh-leeze. And bringing up "posts in my in-box" is the oldest, stupidest internet game in the book. Yeah! Let's fight now over who's gotten the most PRIVATE email telling them how *right* they are. Sure. You have anything further to say to me, please say it privately. Not only is it boring for list members to have to read a pissing match when it's down to only two or three people, but you keep sending me the messages privately ANYWAY. Annie

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Blakes7 February 2001