Blakes7

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5511 discussions

Re:limiters in general
by Steve Rogerson 14 May '01

14 May '01

Mistral said: "Spike did _not_ feed off a live human being in 'Crush'; Drusilla snapped the girl's neck before passing her to Spike, at which point he hesitated before deciding to drink from the dead girl." That is not the way it appears on screen. The whole point is that Dru is trying to get Spike to overcome the limiter chip. If she was already dead, there would be no point. The hesitation seems to be Spike bracing himself before he bites. Maybe we should go to the spin list if we want to continue this and Spike in general. For what it's worth on Gan, my view is that he is a homicidal maniac and it is only the limiter keeping him in check. It is his true self we see emerging when the limiter malfunctions. We also see glimpses of this on the London when he quite coldly threatens to cut off the guard's hand if he doesn't open the door. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > > > He could be thinking, "Oh F**k, a > > > Limiter. And why is > > > Gan > > > talking about it? Could he be a psychopathic killer? > > > Oh, well... I > > > wonder > > > what's for tea." > > > > >So if he does know what a limiter is, and later > >discovers that Gan possesses one we might expect him to > >show some small concern at the implications. Excellent point. However, Vila is taking his cues from the rest of the crew. They all accept Gan. Gan's been friendly to Vila. The Federation is run by bastards who set up Blake. Anyway, Vila will get on with anyone who is nice to him. Look at Doran. Doran doesn't like women and has just served 15 years in prison. He's nice to Vila, he calls him his "pal". Vila therefore likes Doran. That's Vila. > > > > > >Kayn and Renor are scientists at an > > > experimental > > > > > >research station. Kayn is the top neuro-surgeon > > > in his > > > > > >field. Renor must be good otherwise Kayn > > > wouldn't have > > > > > >him as his assistant. The rules of > > > neuro-surgery apply > > > > > >on earth and on XK-72. It is entirely possible > > > that > > > > > >they would recognise an experimental device. > > > > > > He doesn't call it an "experimental device" though, > > > does he? They both > > > talk > > > as if it is commonplace. > > > > > > > > >Incidentally Renor's reaction is not matter of > > > fact, > > > > > >rather it is one of horror. > > > > > > Horror that such things are used, not horror at > > > discovering that such > > > a > > > thing existed. > > > >Which means that their use is not commonplace, rather > >horrific. No. It means that Renor is no supporter of the Federation's use of limiters. > > > >Gan appears to be a rather gentle person, when > > > > > >not in a combat situation. > > > > > > That's right. But look at what he's like *in* > > > combat. Grinning, usually. > > > >So, he likes a scrap. More then just a scrap. He likes killing helpless women too. So does Avon, at least in Shadow > >and Mission to Destiny. So does Tarrant in Harvest and > >Rumours of Death. They're men. They like a scrap :-). But where do you see Avon and Tarrant grinning as they slowly strangle a woman? Avon admits he rather enjoyed fighting with Sara, but that was a fight not a murder. Neither Avon or Tarrant is an > >axe-murderer, nor IMO, is Gan. I agree. Gan is not an axe-murderer. He uses his hands to strangle women. > > What Gan says in this scene is very interesting. > > > Reprint the transcript and > > > I'll go through it with you :-) > > > >If I get the chance I will. Hurry up then :-). > > > >Later on in Time > > > > > >Squad when he tries to shoot the alien he is > > > unable to > > > > > >do so. > > > > > > The limiter stops him. For an explanation see my > > > correspondence with > > > Fiona > > > Moore, April 6th onwards. > > > >Not the archives as well ! But the Limiters actions on > >this occasion are consistent with Gan's account of > >them. Double game again. If you reprint both those scenes I'll go through them with you. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely. The author is playing a double game. > > > >Which means that the text allows for multiple readings > >- not one correct reading and then the readings of > >other people who haven't been paying attention. There will only be one correct reading. The reading the author intends. He is only giving you alternatives because he is foreshadowing something to come, and also to make a programme which can be watched either as a one-off or in a series. > > > "it's not my field" > > > is > > > > > >intellectual speak for "Whilst I have not > > > studied the > > > > > >subject formally, I'm probably still right". > > > (in > > > > > >Avon's case we can discount the probably). > > > > > > Ah. Disagree. Avon sometimes gets it wrong. > > > >Sorry, I was alluding to Avon's lack of humility, not > >his accuracy. But there is nothing in Breakdown to > >suggest that he is wrong in this occasion. No, he probably is right. But as I have stated somewhere else, perhaps the Limiter was working (though badly) at that point and scrambled signals *were* feeding into his brain. But then, when Gan wakes up with no headache, and then starts strangling Cally, this means that the limiter has temporarily stopped working altogether. Whatever it was doing before. > > > > > > > KAYN: A dangerous psychopath? Certainly. Or > > > would > > > > > > > you prefer he'd been > > > > > > > executed? > > > > > > > > > > > >Kayn also describes the crew as murderers, > > > maniacs and > > > > > >mindless destroyers. This is really rather > > > inaccurate, > > > > > >even in Season 4. > > > > > > Yes, but when it comes to a surgical procedure he > > > has to be more > > > precise. > > > If > > > he isn't Renor, who would know these things and with > > > whom he is > > > arguing, > > > would put him right. > > > > >He isn't arguing with Renor about surgical procedure. > >He's arguing with him about politics. You're not paying attention. They are arguing about politics and he is making reference to a surgical procedure to back up his point. The dynamic > >between Renor and Kayn is quite a complex one. Not really. I think it's fairly straightforward. Renor > >is obviously upset by Kayn's callousness and is torn > >between his natural deference to his senior and his > >objections to Kayn's actions. I don't think that's the case at all. Renor is Kayn's assistant. When they meet in the Liberator's medical centre they are quite evidently relaxed with each other. "This place is full of pretty girls." says Doctor Renor. At another point Renor say to Kayn, "Order? You've had a change of heart, haven't you? I sure poor old Farren would be delighted with your new concern for the rules". Kayn replies "Farren is a bureaucratic fool." They are open with each other, which indicates that they have worked together for some time. That's why it develops into an argument. Renor says, "I'll warn Blake," but Kayn knows him too well, "And lose the chance of working with the greatest surgeon you'll ever see? You're too ambitious for that." It would be wrong (from > >the writers point of view) to have Renor take Kayn > >literally and suggest that he has made an incorrect > >diagnosis. Crap. I expect better from you Stephen :-). Also Kayn is a neuro-surgeon, not a > >clinical psychologist and is therefore probably prone > >to using terms from the other disciplines in a slap > >dash manner. Poor supposition. Kayn isn't a real person, he's a character in a episode of Blake's 7. The writer isn't going to come up with some complex bollocks for a one off character that only the writer is going to know, he going to keep the character motivation straightforward. A pro keeps it simple. simple I can imagine him describing someone as a > >schizophrenic, in the popular sense (split > >personality), rather than the clinical sense in a > >common room discussion merely to annoy the > >psychologists present. No. Because then they would laugh at him. Kayn is arrogant and proud. He wouldn't make a mistake like that. Especially in front of Renor. Are we going to go through this scene from Time Squad now? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan in Breakdown
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Tavia wrote: > >Stephen wrote: > > >One of the side effects of radiation sickness is > > >you feel very, very ill indeed. > > > >Headache, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, bleeding from mucous membranes, and > >death in 2 or 3 days. The limiter's probably the least of his problems. Vomiting and diarrhoea, bleeding from mucous membranes and death are the signs of advanced radiation sickness. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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John Brown (was McVeigh)
by Ellynne G. 14 May '01

14 May '01

>Julia Jones wrote >n message <20010512.123126.-7813.0.rilliara(a)juno.com>, Ellynne G. <rilliara(a)juno.com> writes >>JMO, but can I compare this to John Brown and Lincoln? I think it would >>be useful since slavery is pretty uniformly condemned but that doesn't >>mean everyone who was against it was an angel in disguise. >It's a good example because it's looking at things most of us can >consider without personal interest, but you've assumed a greater >knowledge of American history than is likely to be found in the non- >American portion of the list. Could you give a bit more background >detail on John Brown, please? I didn't know anything about him. Oops. John Brown was from a family of 19th century abolitionists. He was something of an extremist in a time when most abolitionists still opposed violence. His mother, I should mention, died insane, a not uncommon occurance in her family. Five of his sons (he had 20 children [it was the 19th century, after all]) went to Kansas during the 'Bleeding Kansas' era. Kansas was supposed to vote whether it would be a slave state or free. Both proslavery forces (largely from nearby Missouri) and abolitionist ones were encouraging immigration to the territory. Armed conflict eventually broke out. In response to a raid by proslavery forces, Brown led an attack on a neighboring, proslavery town. Five, unarmed men who may have had no connection with the other raid were dragged from their homes, hacked to death, and shot. After this, Brown went into hiding, although he continued to attack proslavery forces. Some stories have presented him as freeing slaves during this period. However, these stories may be complete fictions from a later period (I was wishy washy about including it in the earlier post, but I thought it played so well to the issue, I did. However, doing a little extra checking before this post, I found out Brown led a raid into Missouri some years later and escorted a group of slaves to Canada, so the other stories may be just folklore). Brown is most famous for his raid on Harper's Ferry in the South. He planned to raid a military arsenal there and seize 100,000 guns. He then planned to escape into the wilderness where he would, he thought, be joined by huge masses of escaped slaves once they heard what he had done. Frederick Douglas, a famous escaped slave and friend of Brown, told him the plan wouldn't work and that he would not be able to escape Harper's Ferry alive. Brown launched the raid. Interestingly enough, one of his prisoners was a great-great nephew of George Washington. There were also some slaves among the group, according to one account I read. The impression I got was that they were, understandably, scared stiff of Brown. It's also worth mentioning that the first person killed in the raid was shot in the back while trying to warn a stopping train about Brown and his men. Ironically, this was a free black man. For the rest, Douglas was right. The raid failed. Brown seems to have made little effort to escape, although he held off the defenders for about a day and a half. Some historians think he was already planning some kind of martyrdom. Other suggest he was giving into 'magical thinking' and expected some kind of rescue or mass slave rebellion on the spot. Perhaps, having pulled off so many daring attacks before, he simply couldn't believe this one would fail. He was taken alive, tried, and hanged. This event, more than all the rest, made him a martyr to Northerners and a symbol of abolitionist extremists to the South, where some historians say he might otherwise have been forgotten. The effect it had on public opinion is considered one of the major events in leading to the Civil War. Oh, and for anyone who's ever wondered about the 'small world' B7 characters seem to live in - The legendary Pinkerton, of Pinkerton's detectives, provided $600 to Brown when he was helping those slaves escape to Canada. Robert E. Lee, later to lead the Southern army, led the marines who captured Brown. Despite only a limited number of people being allowed to be present at Brown's hanging, they included a Professor who would later be nicknamed Stonewall Jackson during the war and gain fame at the Battle of Bull Run. Also present was an actor, John Wilkes Booth, Lincoln's assassin. As for the phrase, 'nits make lice.' I was told Brown had said this by one of my professors at college. My notes are unclear on the context except that he said it before killing someone unarmed and underage. It may have referred to a 20 year old he killed in Kansas or to a different incident. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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the limits of parody
by Alison Page 14 May '01

14 May '01

Jenny said - >>B7 has taken on a personal role in your lives, for twenty years or so Gan has been a character that you liked, that you felt comfortable with. Now some bitch is trying to tell you that Gan is a killer and what is worse, a killer of women. This is an attack on a friend. No it isn't, it's a comment on a fictional character. I personally find Gan rather dull, and over the 'past twenty years or so' I have been interested to come across your theory from time to time, or variations on it. Supposing you had said 'here is a completely different take on a familiar character - and guess what folks, it stands up just as well to scrutiny as your complacent ideas, and I can quote the episodes to prove it. It is just as valid an interpretation as any of you lot who think Gan is nice and safe and cuddly, and that's how I view Blakes 7, so get used to it.' That would be very interesting, and I for one would have enjoyed that. >>I'm not making this up you know. This is no self deluding "IMO" bullshit.. The pattern's there. Everything fits. But here you seem to be saying 'this is definitely the truth about Gan's character' - and that seems to me to be a meaningless statement. Where is truth held? What does 'truth' mean when we are talking about a work of fiction? These seem to be such glaring problems with your stance that I can't help but feel you are creating a self-parody. Is it just a joke? Thus I conclude (and speaking only of myself): 'I am making this up you know. This is self deluding IMO bullshit. Nothing about B7 is real. This is just a game I play.' Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Mistral wrote: > >Steve Rogerson wrote re Spike's chip: > > > > > Wrong. When Druscilla makes her brief return, she shows him that the > >chip's power > > > is all in his mind and he can overcome it with willpower. He does just > >that and > > > kills a human. > > > >Okay, a bit off topic, but as a Spike redemptionista (see > >http://www.bloodyawfulpoet.com for details if desired) I feel the need > >to correct this. Spike did _not_ feed off a live human being in 'Crush'; > >Drusilla snapped the girl's neck before passing her to Spike, at which > >point he hesitated before deciding to drink from the dead girl. There > >_is_ some confusion over this in Buffy fandom, but the shooting script > >makes it quite clear that the girl was already dead at _Drusilla's_ > >hand. Naughty, naughty Steve. Must pay attention next time. Bad boy. > >Spike's chip, however, does function on intent to harm (although that > >may be one factor among many). Nice fudge there, Mistral. You should work for the Federation :-). In the episode 'Fool for Love' (the Spike > >origins episode, prior to 'Crush'), Spike is able to spar with Buffy, > >because he has no intent to harm her, and therefore the chip doesn't > >kick in. I'm not on Sky, so I could be wrong about this, but do you think it could have something to do with the context of the fight? Also, are we ever actually told by the people who put the chip in exactly how it works. Or is Spike (and so the audience) only going on trial and error? > >There is at least one piece of evidence in B7 that Gan's limiter may > >similarly function on intent, or more accurately, on emotion; Blake says > >in 'Breakdown': "The limiter is supposed to cut in when stress drives > >him to the point where he might kill." That's true, he does, but their are a number of theories put forward in this episode and that is just one. And BTW it is contradicted by the fact that Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. And gets into combat situations elsewhere, without it triggering-- if Spike was in the fight in Deliverance, he'd be screaming. So the trigger appears to be > >rage, not killing per se. But Gan shows no rage when killing the monk or when strangling Cally. This would explain why he's able to indulge in > >some self-defensive actions in 'Deliverance' (and possibly 'Cygnus > >Alpha' as well), because he isn't experiencing sufficient rage to > >trigger the limiter. Then what would be the point of giving him a limiter at all? "This man got into a rage and killed somebody" well, so what? Lots of people kill other people in rages. If you are suggesting that Gan is the sort who often flies into a homicidal rage, then where's your evidence? He attacks Jenna in what is certainly interpreted as a rage by Blake, but later he is entirely calm when strangling Cally. And how many times during the series do we see Gan fly into a rage? Once, and that's debatable. We see him fight a lot, but he never appears to "lose it". He seems quite happy in fact. Also look at the fight with Blake on the flight deck in Breakdown. Gan's gurning a lot, but he isn't out of control. His fight with Blake is pretty deliberate. He's also not holding his head at all. Gan's not in pain anymore. He also uses the same neckbreaking technique on Blake that Blake uses in Cygnus Alpha (before the others arrive and he knocks them down like ninepins), and attacks Avon with the computer equipment after having smashed it up a bit-- he seems to be deliberately choosing his mode of attack. Also take a look at the part where Jenna says, "One minute he was crying with pain and then he went berserk." Gan's limiter shorts out, and now he's free. And here's something else. During Cygnus Alpha Vila stabs a monk to death. Look at Vila's face, it's the first time he's killed anybody. He's horrified. Now look at Blake. He breaks a man's neck. It take skill to do that. Blake has killed before (he breaks a guard's neck in Project Avalon too). Now look at Gan. Again, no worry there about sticking a spear in someone. In fact he's very calm indeed. Gan also has killed before. And I'm not talking about this nonexistant "Federation Security Guard" he allegedly killed "in a rage." Gan is not in a rage here. > >Another possible explanation is that the limiter had already begun to > >malfunction So why doesn't he show aberrant behaviour before this time then? - Blake also says in 'Breakdown' that it had been going bad > >for some time. No,he does not. Watch the episode. Blake says, "it's been bothering him for some time. He tried to keep it secret, but I'm sure that he was in a lot of pain." That's Blake's interpretation. But the evidence from the series indicates that the limiter will give Gan a headache if he is on his own. Or on his own with a woman. The Limiter is functioning perfectly. Blake is just misreading the signs. In Orac, after the limiter has been fixed, Gan gets a headache again. "Ha, but that was the radiation," you say. I say, look at the context (and remember the double game). Gan is in a part of the ship on his own. He has to turn on the intercom system to hear the others on the flight deck. Perhaps doing that gives him the illusion that he wasn't alone and so the pain stops. Later in that same episode, Gan hides behind the teleport bracelet rack. Again, he hates being on his own. Now I'll tell you why the limiter is acting in that way. A lot of druggies go to prison. When inside they are weaned off the drug. When they are released it's not long before they go back on it again. You ask why? Because they are returning home to an environment where drugs are commonplace and the use of drugs is accepted. What the limiter is doing is taking Gan out of the environment where he might kill. If Gan takes or lures women to the lower levels to kill them, then that means the environment the killings take place in is one that is deserted. Gan kills alone. Therefore, the limiter will cut in whenever he is alone, and so make that environment uncomfortable for him. I have spoken to people who are aware of B7 but are outside of fandom about this. It doesn't take them long to grasp the subtext. You lot however, are a different kettle of fish. B7 has taken on a personal role in your lives, for twenty years or so Gan has been a character that you liked, that you felt comfortable with. Now some bitch is trying to tell you that Gan is a killer and what is worse, a killer of women. This is an attack on a friend. You want to defend him. Fair enough, but no matter what you say, you will never disprove what I am saying. And you know why? Because I'm right. Gan is a psychopathic killer. He kills women. He doesn't rape them, but strangles them slowly. He smiles at them and looks them in the face as he does it. That's how he gets his thrill. That's why Gan was sent to Cygnus Alpha. Jenna is guilty, but she's being sent to Cygnus because she has been set up by the Terra Nostra (The Terra Nostra also being part of the Federation). Blake is being sent to Cygnus because he has been found guilty of molesting three children (the charge is most definitely false. He is really being sent because he is political. But the Federation official policy at this point is that there are no rebels.) Vila is sent to Cygnus because he is an habitual criminal. He has been caught a number of times. Locking him up doesn't work, mind manipulation doesn't work. He's a hardened case. Deportation to a penal planet is the last stop for him. Avon is a fraudster. He has also caused Security a great deal of trouble because they have wasted time and resources on him. They mistakenly thought he was political. Avon also seems to have a few things wrong in the personality department as well. Gan has an even greater psychopathic personality disorder. He lives to kill women. If there is no "official" death penalty during the first two seasons of B7 (except for Shadow smuggling-- a mandatory death penalty) then the authorities will have to deport him. But if Gan is sent to Cygnus Alpha unchecked he will be a very real danger to the crew of the transporter ship, not forgetting other prisoners. You don't want someone like that running amok on ship during an 8 month journey. Therefore you fit him with a limiter. Gan can still fight and kill, but not when he is on his own. He has to be with a social group and that social group has to approve his actions. Let's take a look at the way Gan reacts to Avalon when Jenna tears into the room and says "That's not Avalon". He's spoken to her, he's been somewhat overfriendly in fact. The woman may not be Avalon by at this point, but Gan doesn't know she's an android, or even the significance of the purple ball. But once Jenna has said those words, Gan's face distorts, he lunges himself at the woman's throat with all his might. He makes no attempt to knock her out or restrain her, he actually intends to snap her neck. The Avalon android grabs Gan's arms but he has attacked her with such strenght, that you start to hear a whirring sound from "Avalon"'s robotic arms. Even at the end of the story that whirring noise is still heard. And yet all the Avalon Android is doing in that final scene is raising its arm. That never happened before. The answer's simple. The android was damaged by Gan's powerful attack. Now imagine if the Avalon android was a real woman. Gan, on just three words from Jenna, would have squeezed the life out of her, in a matter of seconds. A woman, who up to that point had been friendly to him. A woman who, up to that point, Gan has been ingratiatingly polite to. I'm not making this up you know. This is no self deluding "IMO" bullshit.. The pattern's there. Everything fits. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Julia Jones wrote: Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > >Now I'm wondering what determines whether a convicted criminal gets > > >their > > >mind messed with or gets locked up. Age? The Federation didn't seem to > > >have any qualms about messing with the kids memories to get them to > > >incriminate Blake. > > > >Here it isn't the Federation, but corrupt Federation officials at the > >highest levels - not the same thing. It is the same thing. The Federation is corrupt. What goes on behind closed doors is > >not necessarily what is allowed under official policy. I agree there. But official policy is only for show. > >Vila's psychiatric treatment seems to me to be an official part of the penal > >system, and attempt to reform him so that he is A Good Citizen, what was > >done to falsify a case against Blake was not part of the official > >system. Not the part of the "official system" that the Federation wants you to see. But it is still part of the system's nature. You can't conduct mass exterminations on the scale spoken about in TWB unless the entire system approves. They are all corrupt, and the casualness of it all provides even more evidence. You can't really draw any conclusions from what happened to the > >children in Blake's case Woolly thinking, Julia (Very comforting when worn next to the skin:-) > >other than a corrupt psychiatrist He appear to have some psychiatric training, but then he would have to if his department was involved in using memory blocks. But he also is a doctor of medicine. may have no > >qualms about abusing children in order to frame a political agitator. You're wrong. Dr Havant talks of his "department" infecting Blake with a rapidly terminal disease. Please note, his "department". And it wouldn't be Dr Havant who implants these memories into the subjects, his "department" would do it. The head of the school and the clinic would also have to be involved to arrange the visits. Blake believes that the Administration has stuck its neck out. It hasn't. For them this is just common everyday stuff. "Dictate a letter Miss Jones, and by the way, pass me that unofficial execution order." > > > Seriousness of the offence? Repeated offences? > > >Guessing from what little we've been given (Vila's treatments and > > >imprisonment, the Federation's use of mind controls in general and > > >desire to keep a labor force), the first step for nonviolent, > > >nonpolitical crimes would be take them into custody and try to revise > > >their minds to become law abiding citizens. It might even be possible to > > >do this much without a trial Possible, but to my mind unlikely. Vila talks with pride about how his brain was adjusted. The Federation would want this kind of thing to be accepted as normal, as hiding it away is dangerous. So you put the crook on trial and "for the good of the state and the good of its citizens, and ultimately the good of the recipient, the accused is sentenced to mental re-adjustment." -- after all, if you are already > > >law-abiding, it won't change you, Mentally adjusting people who may be innocent is a waste of time and could be bad publicity. Although who is to say what is "law abiding"? > >And once you've been cured of your unfortunate mental illness, you'll be > >terribly grateful to the state for your medical treatment. You'd perhaps pretend to be, but then if you aren't, who is going to listen to the protests of a common criminal? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Leia Fee wrote: > >I said... > > >>I'm not quite sure where the idea that Gan got the limiter because he > >was a danger to woman came from. > >the Jenny said... > > >That would have been Terry Nation and Chris Boucher. > >Forgive me. I didn't realise they actually had said as much. Perhaps you should watch the series again? I was under > >the impression that it was just a theory you (and others) had. No. > >Jenny said... > > >He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. > > > >Accepted. And it does prove that Gan has lied. > > >>b) he goes for Cally while his limiter is on the fritz > > >And Jenna earlier on. He only attacks Blake when he tries to stop him. > > > >All right. > > > > >And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or refers to it again. > > > >Using lack of evidence as evidence in itself is not usually a good idea. It's not lack of evidence, it's negative evidence, there's a difference. We're talking a character-defining moment here. And it's very interesting that we had just seen very similar events happening on Cygnus Alpha (Gan connects with a woman whose name he doesn't know, she is killed by a guard, he kills the guard), to somebody who wasn't on Cygnus Alpha and wouldn't have seen those events. He doesn't tell Vila that story when he has the chance earlier in "Time Squad," you notice. If somebody talks about something that important in that way and never refers to it again... > >None of the others talk about their past with the Federation much either. They do when it's as important as this. And like I said, who said it was the Federation? > >To use the only other example we have of the crew's past love lives...how > >often does Avon speak about Anna other than in the episode we actually see > >her? Countdown, Children of Auron. Haven't been paying attention have you:-)? > > >If Gan has been fitted with a limiter there is a reason for it. > > > >Indeed. But the evidence doesn't point for certain at that reason being a > >violent hatred of women. I think there is a lot of evidence that it does. > >Jenny wrote... > > >A monk killed Kara who showed affection to Gan. That's where Gan got > > >the story from. > > > >Or the situation mirrored his past and he was so enraged by it happening > >again that *that's* why he was able to override the limiter and kill the guy. That would mean that the writer was working backwards. If that event on Cygnus Alpha had taken place after Time Squad, you'd have a point. But before? Also, Gan quite clearly isn't in a rage when he kills the monk. He appears quite rational. > > >we are talking about Gan's cover story here. In TWB Blake states > > >"I'm innocent, of what I was charged with anyway". Vila replies, "We have > > >something in common then.We are all victims of a miscarriage of justice." > > >"It's true!" Protests Blake, "Of course it is!" says Jenna. They don't > > >believe him, because they know that many guilty people, even after > > >conviction, will protest their innocence. They also know that many will > >lie about what they are convicted of. TWB was written and script-edited by > >the same two people who wrote and script-edited all of the first season. > > > >Er, are you saying that since Jenna did not initially believe Blake was > >innocent that Gan must therefore be guilty? Sorry, I don;t quite grasp the > >point you're trying to make. Okay. I'll try and put it more clearly then. The scene in TWB shows that the author is aware of the prison convention that most people say they are innocent even when they aren't. And that most prisoners are dismissive of other people's claims of innocence. Gan's story takes place on the Liberator flight deck. "So what?" you say, well, the context of the environment will impact on people. A prisoner who may be charged with stealing a loaf of bread may very well state, while in prison, that he is on an attempted murder charge, because that has more cachet, and will give him a bit more respect from fellow prisoners. But outside he isn't going to say that, is he? On the Liberator flight deck Gan gives Jenna a story. In the holding cell on earth, it is doubtful that she would have believed it, but by this episode a lot of things have happened. 1/ Blake's a nice guy after all and was innocent. (Though interestingly she doesn't appear to know what he was convicted of) 2/ Gan appears friendly and has helped them. 3/ Blake the leader has welcomed Gan into the crew. 4/ Gan tells a sob story about how his woman was killed and how he was unfairly convicted. Well, this all makes sense to Jenna. The Federation are bastards after all. They framed Blake. They don't care about justice. They framed Gan too. See? Makes sense doesn't it? No. They framed Blake because he was political. They haven't framed the others though. Vila even appears to admit his guilt. Avon was also justly found guilty. And so ironically was Jenna. So why frame Gan? He killed a guard? No. What's a guard? Cannon fodder. They are ten a penny. "Ah, yes", you say "but the guard represented the state." So? They could easily have done what they did with Travis. "We are good. Travis was an evil man. We are showing you how good we are by bringing this man to justice." You see? A pro keeps it simple. You don't go to the trouble of altering a crime scene to convict a big lunk like Gan. You don't spend money unnecessarily fitting a man with a limiter unless there is something to limit. And if the state is pretending to be fair (see Sally Manton's recent and very intelligent post on the matter) you don't act in such a grossly unfair way by fitting a man with a limiter and sending him to a penal colony because he killed someone that murdered his wife/lover/girlfriend/whatever. It would involve a massive conspiracy. And for what? Nothing. Now for fairness sake, lets look at the circumstances of the alleged killing. A guard kills Gan's woman. Why? Has the guard got a death wish? The entire Dome appears to be tripped out with security cameras. If a guard killed Gan's woman and is seen by security then he's going to be arrested. Or at the very least taken outside and shot. You don't want people like that in the army. They are there to obey orders, not go about killing people unnecessarily. "Okay," you say, "but we see guards shooting down people on Zondawl". Yes,we do, and what are these people? They are zonked out on drugs. Literally brain dead. All they can do is dribble. Different situation in the Domes on the earth. Here the people have more freedom. The Federation is pretending that it is fair. They want people to work, not dribble. You don't want to upset that balance by employing a homicidal guard. Anyway, the guards get plenty of chances to kill all the people they want legitimately. So, if the killing took place, it took place somewhere quiet, away from surveillance. One of the lower levels maybe. Or outside. Basically the woman would have to be alone when she was killed. You don't murder people in public. Bad publicity. But if she's alone with a murdering guard, then Gan must also have been there. He says that he killed a guard that killed his woman. Therefore he must have known who the guard was, but how? They wear masks for a start. Also this killer guard is not going to advertise the fact that he has just murdered someone either, is he? Conclusion: Gan was present at the time. So this is what we have. Gan, his woman and a guard are in one of the lower levels. Perhaps Gan and his woman were trying to escape? But where to? To the people of the Dome "outside" appears to be an alien environment. Perhaps Gan has political connections? But he never mentions them. He doesn't say, "I was part of the rebels, I tried to escape. My woman was shot in the process." That would be a great thing to say. Because it would elicit maximum sympathy in the environment he's now in. But he doesn't. Why? Because it's too much information. Blake, who is a rebel himself, might know he's lying. So Gan keeps it simple. And if it's a sob story, decorum dictates that you don't keep probing the poor guy about it. So Gan tells one person: Jenna. And one day Jenna will tell the others. "Poor Gan", says Cally, "The Federation is run by barbarians!" Jenna nods in agreement, "That implant gives him terrible headaches you know." "Does it?" "Yes, he tries to hide it but Blake's noticed as well." Cally shakes her head sadly, "Poor Gan. Have you noticed how he doesn't like being left on his own?" "It must be the trauma of what happened. Poor innocent Gan. He's not very bright, but his poor broken heart is in the right place." Actually, Gan *is* bright. Strange that. Also look at the amount of guards that were waiting for Blake when he returned from the outside. If Gan and his woman was detected trying to operate the outer door, then why would security send one guard? And why just shoot the woman? If this was the scenario then why not shoot Gan as well? After all he's just killed one of their number with his bare hands. Doesn't make sense does it? And if they are going to put him on trial, how are they going to explain his missing woman? A pro keeps it simple. If Gan and his woman were political and they were trying to escape the dome, then the guards would have just shot then both dead. No pissing about. (See the massacre in TWB) The only other scenario is that Gan was alone with a woman in the lower levels, because he took her there to kill her, and the guards found him. > > > When he is strangling Cally it is a deliberate act. He is > > >smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do > > >that? If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then > > >presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. > > > >If it had stopped working completely then that would be true. Thank you. We know it > >is still doing *something*, Avon says as much. It is still actively but > >sending scrambled signals. At the time Avon is looking at it, that is true. But the limiter has developed a fault. What if the Limiter is now cutting in and out? There is certainly evidence for that. Gan is quite merrily strangling Cally and then the ship lurches. Gan is thrown back, he advances on Cally again, and then he grabs his head in pain and flees. The brain is remarkably complex and I wouldn't > >presume to speculate on what messing with it might do to persons > >personality and behaviour. Yes, but we aren't really talking about a brain, are we? We are talking about a subtext, put in by two smart writers. And they *are* smart, you don't get employed by the BBC if you're thick. (Unless it's in management of course:-)) Anyway people can undergo fairly extensive brain surgery without it changing their personality. It depends on the sort of surgery and where. > > >This is not the illogical actions of a man who has been driven to > > >violence by pain caused by a malfunctioning limiter. These are deliberate > > >actions. They have a pattern. > > > >Yes they are calculated, violent, whatever. We assume from the fact he has > >the limiter he is unstable and violent. I personally would not think > >killing someone in revenge is the act of an amiable friendly chap. I agree. I'm not > >actually arguing that point. What I'm disagreeing with is the idea that > >his violence is specifically targeted at women. I think the way he reacts to Jenna, Cally and Avalon suggest that he *is* specifically targeting women. This is how Kara fits in. Gan sees a mysterious woman on Cygnus Alpha. Gan immediately leaves the group and follows her. He can't kill her of course, but; "Old habits die hard, Sinofar". "I know." When they finally meet Kara kisses him. And later shouts a warning cry, saving his life and effectively dies for him. If Gan has problems with relating to women, then what happens with Kara must have had an impact on him. She kissed him. She died for him. He doesn't know her name, but she now has a connection to him. In a sense, she could even be called "his woman". It becomes part of his mental furniture, crafted to fit in with the general pattern of self loathing and hatred. "A woman who loves me kisses me when she sees me. A woman who despises me will not. I will be attracted to her, but she will not kiss me. I am shit. I am hopeless. I am unloved.These people can see this in me. I am worthless. They secretly laugh at me. And every time I see them it tells me how worthless and unloved I am." > > > Yes it could have, but it wasn't. The writer has > > >set it up so that it is Cally and Jenna who are attacked. > > > >I hesitate to say it, loving the show as I do...but it is pretty typical > >for the girlies to get into trouble and need rescuing...even in B7. I > >don't read much into it. I can see that you love the show. But I'm going to tell you something now. So did Chris Boucher, so did Terry Nation. Most of the production was shit. But that's the BBC. If I'm allowed to go through all the episodes with everyone, and I'm not howled down by the IMO's, then you'll see what I mean. As a very good friend of mine--no stranger to production--has repeatedly hammered into my skull, "There is no such thing as coincidence in script writing." > > >The word "my" is the possessive. > > > >I talk about 'my partner' too. Doesn't mean I think I own him or am going > >to top him or anyone else if I lose him. Then why call S/he "my" then? Don't you love your partner? Do you share this person with someone else? > >Doesn't automatically make it right. I think it does. > > There is just as much evidence for a > >number of views. As I have stated before the writers are conducting a double game. But if and when we go through the series, you'll see that the weight of evidence favours Gan the woman killer. And you know why? Because it's there. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan in Breakdown
by Tavia 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen wrote: >One of the side effects of radiation sickness is >you feel very, very ill indeed. Headache, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, bleeding from mucous membranes, and death in 2 or 3 days. The limiter's probably the least of his problems. Tavia

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