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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Re: Wendy
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

Helen wrote: > > I was > > more blunt than this on the Deliverance thread, and > > people didn't accuse me > > of attacking Mistral personally! > > > No because when you said you "didn't understand how intelligent women > could like Deliverance", it came across as insulting every female who > had already stated why they liked it... either you didn't understand > their posts, and as you are rather articulate, it seems unlikely; or you > meant you considered no female who disagreed with you to be intelligent. Hey, I've just done what Carol suggested we should, and gone back through Wendy's posts on Deliverance in the archive. Here's what she actually says (2001-02-02 21:39:58 ): "What I meant to say was, it is ridiculous not to say that Deliverance doesn't, for whatever reason, contain sexist elements and themes. And that it strikes me as disturbing that a story which does contain such themes continually makes the top-ten lists of intelligent, aware, female fans." This is after at least *five days* of arguing her corner (and a pretty gruelling five days at that), and arguing it totally alone, and to be honest, reading them back in the cold light of day, they were very articulate (if somewhat aggressive) arguments. Now a lot of people have since said that they do see sexist themes in Deliverance. Wouldn't you say Wendy's got a good point that it's disturbing that not many otherwise-intelligent people admitted to seeing it then? > (BTW, why only 'intelligent females'? Do you consider tolerence of > sexism to be a sign of stupidity in females but normal in males?) To which I refer you to the paragraph I quoted. Which doesn't say that only females are intelligent, it says it's surprising that *female* fans would like something so sexist. I would also refer you to Carol's post on "twisting [Wendy's] words" and add that, if you can't fight fair, you shouldn't fight at all. Shane "Is it that Blake has a talent as a natural leader, or that you have a talent for being led?" --Avon

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Re: [B7L] Re: Brit-char-speak
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/21/01 1:08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, julia.lysator(a)jajones.demon.co.uk writes: << I mean that quite seriously. Much as I love ST (when it's not Voyager), it does look to me remarkably like the good ol' US of A projected into the future. Possibly because it was quite deliberately written as that, so far as much of TOS is concerned. I can't really comment on B5, but what little I've seen struck me as much less overtly American in tone than does ST. And yes, B7 has a blatantly British feel. (This may be a good time to remind the list that my national identity is somewhat ambiguous...) >> I never found anything particularly 'British' about B7 beyond the accents of the actors. At least STAR TREK had the "Omega Glory" episode, complete with the Declaration of Independence and the American flag. If anyone can point to something distinctly British within the entire run of the B7 series, it'll be news to me; I've never noticed. Leah

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Re: [B7L] Sally-speak
by Ashton7＠aol.com 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/20/01 5:48:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, littles(a)lycos.co.uk writes: << > critic who accused Shakespeare for making > Hamlet suffer so much. For > centuries the audience has experienced > aesthetic pleasure in his suffering, > and some would probably call it beautiful.) Didn't think that when John Savident played Hamlet. Or Basil Brush... anyway, big difference between fan slash and Eng. Lit. in *my* opinion... >> Yes, Shane, perhaps that's so... but the quote you were answering was talking about hurt/comfort in literature and fan fiction NOT slash, I believe. Annie

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Re: [B7L] Sally-speak
by Tavia Chalcraft 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

Shane wrote: >...big difference between fan slash and Eng. Lit. in *my* opinion... Not necessarily.... There's a lot of excellent writers who write adult material. Tavia http://www.viragene.com/

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Domes
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

Dana: >1. How big is a dome--would it be the equivalent of, e.g., >a city block, The City of London, London, or England? In the beginning of "The Way Back" when Blake is walking through the corridors on his way to meet with the woman, there are signs on the walls saying L-37, L-34, etc. that seem to indicate there are several levels to the dome. When Blake and the woman (can't think of her name) head down one of the corridors it appears to have a downward slant...indicating they are walking to a lower level. I always wondered if this was to imply that the domes are multi-level. They could house large populations but instead of being big and spread out, they are level on level. I seem to have adopted this theory as my personal canon. My one complaint with RoD is that it didn't take place within a dome. I would like to have seen more of dome life. Courtney

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Re: [B7L] Domes
by Tavia Chalcraft 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

Dana: >1. How big is a dome--would it be the equivalent of, e.g., >a city block, The City of London, London, or England? I >imagine it must be fairly small--in The Way Back, you can >see the light bulb shining through the little bitty windows >cut in the styrofoam, the way you can in a building as >you walk past. Ignoring prop constraints, doesn't Avon say that he had to go across 'half the city' to get his exit visa? I'd taken this to imply that the domes were each city-sized, with at least a million or so inhabitants, plus suitable supply industries. >2. Which brings up the question of how many domes >there are, and whether separate countries are still >recognized--i.e., I've made references to Englandome >and Helveticadome but even if countries still exist there >would probably be lots of domes per country. Given that the type of war likely to have caused resort to dome living is also likely to have severely reduced the population I'd seen there being multiple but relatively few domes per country. The UK is likely to remain distinct from the rest of Europe. And doesn't someone refer to Governor Le Grande as being of the Outer Gaul region (VftP) ? >3. How do people get around within a dome? >I know that personal transportation has been banned, >but I can't believe that domes are small enough to walk >from one end to the other.I assume something like >trams or commuter trains. You've convinced me. Overground or underground rail seems the most plausible, though I rather like the idea of gondola-type transport.... which would make sense if ground area was at a premium, while the majority of the dome volume above building height was empty. Tavia http://www.viragene.com/

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Re: [B7L] Domes
by J MacQueen 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

>From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> >5. Which brings up the question of whether >the schools have "grades" or "forms," >"high schools" or "comprehensives," "colleges" or "universities." Also on how important the authorities believed training/education to be to particular groups or individuals, and how they might've tested people for certain forms of training/education. Vila says, in Stardrive, that he was thirteen, I think (someone with more time will look this up, I'm sure, and thankyou to whoever does), when he was on a penal ship that collided with an asteroid. But he also claimed that he did something to gain his lower-grade status, suggesting that in the Federation they might have started testing children for career possibilities rather early. Depending upon how Orwellian you believe the Fed authorities to be, it could even go back into early childhood, especially if the results showed possibilities for the future, and not only career ones necessarily. One might wonder how the children who were brainwashed to provide the evidence against Blake were chosen, outside of possible reasons such as their parents owing someone a few favours, for instance. This is a bit of tangent to Dana's question, sorry, and I'll give my speculation now. My thought is that they may refer simply to primary, secondary and tertiary education, and they may well have "streams" filled according to how the individuals involved tested. If they don't just decide according to the parents' social level, and change their minds if the pupil showed some particular aptitude, of course. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Sally-speak
by Mac4781＠aol.com 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

Well, if this hasn't broken February's record, I don't know what will. :) There were a ton of thoughtful posts on this subject this morning and some very good points were made. Forgive me, if I feel a need to add my two cent's worth. I'm sure many of you are very worn of this topic. Sally wrote: > I think this has gone past a joke. Quite simply, being called worthless > crap hurts. Sally, if Wendy had indeed called you "worthless crap" I would have been the first to come to your defense. But I honestly never saw Wendy attacking the poster. Now admittedly I may not remembering everything, and I'd appreciate it if such attacks exist if someone would repost the *quotes*. Twisting her words into personal attacks don't count. I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again because I think it is important. The Internet makes it very easy for us to do quoting. Quoting avoids misunderstandings. So rather than twist what people say, use the quotes. > Carol and Shane's approval thereof have struck a very painful > nerve. I would speak up again. Wendy has a right to post to this list. I didn't say I agreed with everything she said. I didn't say I agreed with her posting style. What I did see was a large group of people attacking one person. Yet Wendy stood up for position without taking any of those attacks personally. I admire that. I don't know that I could have withstood such a barrage. I felt it was time that someone spoke up on her behalf. I tend to do that when I see an underdog. > I've been assuming for two years that people took my 'Fearless Leader', 'My > Darling', etc, the burbles sending up the sillier aspects of the show and > splattering capitals and generally having a bit of fun with the characters > and the show as just that - fun, and had the sensitivity to discriminate > between that and my serious comments. You use those terms even when you are participating in serious discussions. So if someone questions their appropriateness to the series in a serious manner, that may be why. Any extreme posting style--as in Wendy's bluntness or your syrupy burbles--is going to be like fingernails across a blackboard to some readers. That happens. It's human nature. It doesn't mean anyone should have to change their posting style, but they should be aware of the fact that it's going to irritate a portion of the readers. If anyone on this list wants universal approval, they're on the wrong list. Wendy wrote: > But this S/M stuff has been > going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't > mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash > zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open > my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about > Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep > that sort of thing on the other list, where it > belongs. But you are not forced to read those posts. Just as you told Marian and Sally in regard to Tarrant stories "to stop reading bad fanfic," you can delete posts that are upsetting. None of us are going to like every topic on the B7 lists. As for what belongs on the "other list," for the sake of peace those of us who enjoy certain topics do try to keep them on the other list. I don't see people initiating threads of an adult nature on this list. Sometimes lyst threads do drift in that direction, and often those threads are then quietly transferred to the other list. But to expect that posts to the lyst are never going to touch on slash is unreasonable. And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual. Which is what Betty said, and you answered: Wendy wrote: > But this S/M stuff has been > going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't > mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash > zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open > my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about > Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep > that sort of thing on the other list, where it > belongs. But you are not forced to read those posts. Just as you told Marian and Sally in regard to Tarrant stories "to stop reading bad fanfic," you can delete posts that are upsetting. As for what belongs on the "other list," for the sake of peace those of us who enjoy certain topics do try to keep them on the other list. I don't see people initiating threads of an adult nature on this list. Sometimes lyst threads do drift in that direction, and often those threads are then quietly transferred to the other list. But to expect that posts to the lyst are never going to touch on slash is unreasonable. And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual. Which is what Betty said, and you answered: > My understanding of the concept of "Suffering > Beautifully" was that a character is physically or > emotionally hurt, and that this pain makes him more > attractive in the eyes of the reader and/or writer. > Which seems to me have a sadistic twist to it, even if > there's not actual S/M sex. But should sadism be a forbidden topic on the list? And if it is, what other topics that might offend a fan here or a fan there should be forbidden? That's a serious question. I don't like to offend list members, but too much censorship might water the list down to mush. Back to h/c, and unfortunately I only have a few more minutes so I can't get into this as thoroughly as the subject deserves. It's not the pain makes h/c stories interesting. It's as Betty said, the character's reaction to the pain that makes it interesting. But I will confess that some characters suffer beautifully. I've only seen a couple of Voyager eps, one of which was "The Chute," and I thought Paris and Kim looked a lot cuter scruffy and beaten than they did cleaned up. It's not that I like suffering, and I don't think I'm a sadist. They just looked cuter, the hair hanging in their faces, etc. It was a visual thing. I will admit that I've also enjoyed some S/M B7 stories. And was shocked to find I enjoyed them. But I don't enjoy S/M in real life. No more than I enjoy war and killing in real life. Sorry, I really am out of time. So I'm sending this off unproofed and hoping I made sense and didn't offend anyone. Carol Mc

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Declaration Of Intent To Continue Being An Idiot
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

>From: Betty Ragan <ragan(a)sdc.org> >Penny Dreadful wrote: > > I think those who believe in the Lord Avon should swear on "A:ATA", >I think I'd prefer to swear *at* A:TA... :) But if you swear *on* "A:ATA", that would be evidence of true devotion to the Lord Avon. Courtney

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Re: Excalibur, Blake's 7 (but no Zulus)
by J MacQueen 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

>From: Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> >I only watched Excalibur once, and it was when I was twelve. I only >remember the parts I disliked; I'm sure it has charms I didn't >appreciate. I still have problems with Sand, having first seen it at the same age and with the same reaction as Helen to Excalibur. The twelve-year-old me who thought vampire sand was stupid keeps rearing its less than aesthetically pleasing head whenever I try to suspend disbelief. Strangely, there would've been things even less believable in Doctor Who episodes being shown around the same time, yet I seem to have accepted them within their stories without fuss or much in the way of thought. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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