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5511 discussions

Groundhog Day
by Predatrix 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Can anyone give me a brief synopsis of the film to jog my mind, it's a while since I've seen it? I'm working on my story, which will probably go to F&I7 (unless people on-list really *do* want a time-loop 'zine, and are prepared to accept a story whose nature It Is Not Convenient To Describe On *This* List. ObB7: beginning of incipient story: [start quote] Good morning, sir, Zen intoned deferentially, may I suggest the black trousers with the charcoal-grey shirt and dove-grey tunic? Your tea is prepared. It is a fine day on Earth (the Supreme Commander is having a military parade again), rainy season on Palmero, and poor visibility with blizzards on Albian. Ill wear the black leather, Avon said, sipping the tea. He could hear robotic arms reproachfully reorganising his personal wardrobe. It had appealed to him to make Zen emulate the long-forgotten figure of Reginald Jeeves, but surely he had far too much intelligence to be Bertie Wooster. Maybe he could add more fish to the food processor? [endquote] Cheers, (...see you at the con, persons...)

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Alison Page 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Stephen said - >The last book I read on the subject, or at least >started to read, (Pinker - The Language Instinct) >suggested that we think non-verbally. Great book. Have you read any Chomsky? Pinker was doing so well, then he turned to trying to define female sexuality and made a total hash of it. >Linguistic philosophers are probably so used to this >process of translation that they are not aware that it >happens ! Yes. I tend to think they aren't that different from me, they just refuse to give credence to events that they can't categorise in linguistic terms. >On a Blake's 7 note - how would this affect Cally's >Telepathy ? As explained in Time Squad it would >correspond with this theory. Cally can send because >she has translated her thoughts into *speech* but >cannot read minds, presumably because one's thoughts >are too inchoate. In later episodes she is capable of >receiving emotions but not thought. (At least, as far >as I recall). > >Any thoughts ? My thought is that I hope you are coming to Redemption so you can come along to my panel on telepathy in fiction. Steve - when is it? I never got a program Alison PS 'inchoate' isn't that a fantastic word

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Natasa Tucev 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Alison wrote: >Your point is very well taken Natasa, and perhaps sums up for me why I could >never describe myself as a 'character junkie' because I simply don't enjoy >reading passages like the imaginary one you gave. Thank you, Alison. Unfortunately, it's not an imaginary passage, but an existing one, by a rather well-known author. I keep this story on my hard disk hoping that one day I will muster up the nerves and courage to read it to the end. My apologies to the author, but it's really unbearably pathetic. >On the other hand - who knows what people are like 'inside their heads'. I >have a problem in that most of what I do inside is non-verbal, which is why >I am so often groping for terms and names. However many linguistic >philosophers claim that thought is entirely couched in verbal terms, and >perhaps this is for them an accurate representation of how they experience >their own internal life. This is perhaps the mainstream linguistic philosophy, but it's not the only one existing. Try reading 'Myth, Truth and Literature' by Colin Falck and you will find a lot of interesting ideas about how language originates in bodily gestures and still has its bodily dimension which is essential to its relation to the objective world (quite opposite to what Derrida et al. say). And since you once mentioned you liked me quoting poetry, here is a poem about non-verbal communication, written by my favourite Irishman: THE GUTTURAL MUSE Late summer, ant at midnight I smelt the heat of day: At my window over the hotel car park I breathed the muddied night airs off the lake And watched a young crowd leave the discotheque. Their voices rose up thick and comforting As oily bubbles the feeding tench sent up That evening at dusk - the slimy tench Once called the 'doctor fish' because his slime Was said to heal the wounds of fish that touched it. A girl in a white dress Was being courted out among the cars: As her voice swarmed and puddled into laughs I felt like some old pike all badged with sores Wanting to swim in touch with soft-mouthed life. N.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Fanfic
by Ashton7＠aol.com 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/12/01 2:27:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, avona(a)jps.net writes: << Neil, you had me laughing with the remarks about how to keep the 'tone' of the series, but are there really so few people who enjoy the milieu of Blake's 7. Keeping in mind that not being able to use more than one of the main cast, there could easily be stories about Jarriere, Carnell, or Kasabi? Well, I was talking with Tavia and I am willing to edit a zine on this principle. I'm sure if people are willing to write for it, someone will be willing to read it. Who's game? >> Wasn't there already a zine done on basically this premise? "Forgotten 7"? Or am I misremembering the basic premise of that one? Personally, I think if people are inspired to write the stories, have at it. But, I have to agree with those who said it's likely not to sell very well if the entire zine follows that formula. Most fans want to read fan fiction that is about their favorite characters and they won't hesitate to say so. ;-) And, hi. Since I'm still on disability from work, I re-subscribed to the list after a looooong absence. I know that some of you guys know me. ::::waving very gingerly in a neck brace::::: Annie Wortham (who just realized my posts have been going to the individuals instead of the list... the Reply To says the list address, but for some reason that's not what's happening...)

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Fw: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Natasa Tucev 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

This post was probably intended for the Lyst: Return-Path: <Ashton7(a)aol.com> From: Ashton7(a)aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:37:18 EST Subject: Re: [B7L] liking 'character' To: tucev(a)tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu >In a message dated 2/13/01 7:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, >tucev(a)tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu writes: > ><< This is actually the author trying to explain to us the psychological > motivation of characters in her story, and she is doing it in a very clumsy > way. She also shows great disrespect for us as the readers, because she > thinks that we wouldn't be able to figure out by some more subtle signs how > Blake feels about Avon or how Vila feels about Blake or whatever. >> > >Yes, but this is the way written fiction has to work. In a play or a tv show >or a movie, so much more can be said with an *expression* or body language >that *cannot* be conveyed in any other way than with words in written >fiction. Ask any professional writer who has written both forms. A writer on >the Highlander tv series wrote a novel about the show and she mentioned in >her afterword that she couldn't *believe* how unbelievably different and >difficult it was to write the novel as opposed to a script. She pointed out >the fact that she had to be so much more wordy and that she couldn't rely on >the actor's being able to get the feeling and the meaning of the words >across. She had to *explain* everything. > >If an author, be they pro or fannish, doesn't include enough description, >explanation, dialogue, etc., you end up with a very sterile story that might >as well be a script with little to no stage direction. I've seen many fan >stories like that and, believe me, once read they are usually quickly >forgotten. There's nothing there to involve the reader in what's happening. >As a professor of literature once told me in college: "Character is >everything." A movie/tv show can focus on action/adventure to the exclusive >of character (I, personally, might not enjoy that all that much, but it can >work), but if a book does that, it's just boring. > >Annie > >

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Sally wrote: >But do Mary Sues (the real thing) represent or encourage anything of the sort? >Not in my reading experience - quite the opposite. She's even more strictly >defined that a badly-written comp tech <g> and - what is much much worse - >has an appalling effect on the writing of the characters that I already know >and like. It's a bit of case of bad writing is bad writing is bad writing. To my mind there's nothing wrong with authorial presence in a story. There's also nothing wrong with adding a powerful external character, whatever his/her gender. I fear it's not what one does, it's how one does it that counts. (IMO) >There is also the Shiny Happy aspect of both the May Sue and the (mentioned by >Kathryn) James Bond types (which annoy me every bit as much in B7 fiction, >BTW). They're irritating enough in Shinier Happier universes - in this bleak, >somewhere between black-and-blacker one, peopled by bad-tempered, >pig-headed, quarrelsome, suspicious, self-centred, temperamental types >(and that's just the Good Guys), they stick out like a Rainbow Princess >Doll in a Svankmayer film. Again, shiny happy MS's are bad writing in any context -- if the MS is perfect and conflict-free he/she isn't a *character* and thus doesn't belong in the story. >And <deeply offended sniff> *I like* onboard stories No offence was intended. Great. So do I, if one doesn't mind the fact that such stories often tend to end up as pure talking heads. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Mistral wrote: >If the author wrote a character that was _actually_ what >s/he would be like in the B7 universe, it might make for a very >interesting character indeed. I tried this one with a peripheral character recently -- fed up with the (self-) accusations of writing a Mary-Sue, I decided to add a *real* one. It made an interesting contrast, but I wouldn't say she was an interesting character: as her role in the story is to act as the chorus, the anonymous citizen of the Federation, she didn't get much of a chance to shine. It felt fairly strange to write, especially as I have a bit of a non-Tavian persona for my pseud, so now I think what's Tavia doing in my pseud's story? If I find the time, I might well develop her for Helen's new zine, but that would involve working out her character rather more clearly and differentiating her from me. Tavia

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original characters
by Mac4781＠aol.com 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

For those interested in original characters I thought I'd pass along a list of stories that contain some of my favorite ocs in fanfic. May King by Susan Cutter (http://members.100free.com/users/scutter/) - ADULT - is a novel full of rich settings and engrossing original characters. The Scorpio crew's search for food sources takes them to a "a planet so wonderful the natives call it Eden." The Nothing That Is (Southern Comfort 8.5) and Exit Interview (Southern Comfort 10.5) by Lexa Reiss - ADULT - a pair of stories that deal with Tarrant's pre-series days. His FSA roommate, Jarn, plays a vital role in both stories. The Desperados (Southern Seven 7) by H. S. Levijoki - A PGP told from the pov of a resident of Gauda Prime. It provides a wonderful perspective of our rebels as outlaws. Outside Impression (Gambit 2) by Peggy Hartsook - Another story told from the perspective of an original character. This time we view our rebels through the eyes of a child. It's another unique and delightful perspective. Carol Mc

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Re: [B7L] Re: Deliverance, Gender and Technology
by Natasa Tucev 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Helen wrote: Many people who feel technology without philosphy is >ruining the planet like to embrace goddess-worship as part of their >world view, which suggests even most rebels against society are buying >into the technical/man-- emotional/woman dichotomy of the mainstream >culture. (This ties in with the thread about how even rebelling from the >culture, we a shaped by it). I don't agree. I don't think there's anything sexist, or culturally prejudiced, in seeing Earth as feminine. Ask Ellynne or Fiona and I think they will agree that numerous mythologies throughout the world which haven't had any interaction with each other view the Earth as such. Earth is mother. It gives birth to things. There's no way you can see it as masculine (or at least none that I'm aware of). This is not a matter of ideology. It is an archetype, an ancient human notion, deeply ingrained within our psyche. Earth and water are feminine elements, both for the Chinese and the Celts. Yes, I'm interested in the goddess thing. If nothing else, it provides a very original critical stance for analysing literature. Some of the best writers of today, both male and female, promote the feminine principle - Seamus Heaney, Nobel Prize, Ted Hughes, English Poet Laureate, Coetzee, two Booker prizes, D.M. Thomas, Margaret Atwood. Or, if you want to stay within the SF/F genre, try Mists of Avalon. It is a bit longish and some parts are boring, but it's worth reading for its world-view. On the other hand, I feel that very often feminists are missing the point, fighting for women's right to fill the positions which were previously filled by men, within the structures which still remain essentially governed by the masculine principle. I don't see that world has become a better place because some female monsters have been asigned to the position of Prime Ministers of Foreign Secretaries of influential countries. Psychologically they are the offspring of Athens, who was conceived in her father's head. The real issue should be the equality of principles, masculine and feminine. N. (who admits she is very heated about this)

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Sally Manton 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Tavia wrote: <The whole anti-Mary-Sue feeling has (IMO) done more to stultify B7 fanfic than anything else. I'd rather put up with a whole host of blatant Mary-Sues in the hope that people felt freer to invent new characters and new situations.> But do Mary Sues (the real thing) represent or encourage anything of the sort? Not in my reading experience - quite the opposite. She's even more strictly defined that a badly-written comp tech <g> and - what is much much worse - has an appalling effect on the writing of the characters that I already know and like. In my experience, the average MS story doesn't just shriek "isn't this creation of mine wonderful?" but also "wouldn't Avon/Vila/Tarrant be so much better off with Wonderful Creation who understands and appreciates him properly and who he can confide in and trust than that these stupid insensitive Nearthandal types he has to put up with on the screen?" *That's* the thing I most hate about them - not that they're Wonderful, but the way that said wonderfulness ladled on at the expense of the regulars. (And to be perfectly honest, the OFCs (Original Female Characters) I've seen in other fandoms were often rather off-putting as well - not that I'm claiming that as a general rule, since I haven't read a lot outside B7, but enough to note that the Little-Ms-Aren't-I-So-Much-More-Wonderful-Than-Your-Heroes* type is rather widespread). There is also the Shiny Happy aspect of both the May Sue and the (mentioned by Kathryn) James Bond types (which annoy me every bit as much in B7 fiction, BTW). They're irritating enough in Shinier Happier universes - in this bleak, somewhere between black-and-blacker one, peopled by bad-tempered, pig-headed, quarrelsome, suspicious, self-centred, temperamental types (and that's just the Good Guys), they stick out like a Rainbow Princess Doll in a Svankmayer film. I like original characters within reason (i e , not hogging the pages, that's My Darling's job) and I *don't* think it's the anti-MS feelings that's as responsible for the lack of original characters as you think, just that a lot of us - readers and writers alike - *are* pretty satisfied with the range within the series itself, not just the regulars but some of guests like Anna, Avalon, the Clone, Carnell ... Jarriere ... I'm going to mention the dreaded s-word here :-), not to start an argument but to make a point: Sarah Thompson compiles lists of pairings, and at last count (last year) there were just under Avon/OCF-*or*/OMF on it. There were over 500 A/B stories. That's a lot of versions of just one relationship (and believe me, it's *all* over the emotional shop, the answer to 'how many ways can you write it appears to be *a lot*), and doesn't include the several hundred A-B gen stories Jenny and I went through to make out list. These weren't all written because people were afraid of being labelled MSues (in a lot of the gen, especially, there *were* original characters, they just took a back seat to My Darlings) they were written because the unusual richness and drama of the onscreen characters and their relationship (IMO-only, Neil ... :-) was still interesting to them, no matter how many others had tried it before. And after all, even a bad portrayal of Avon or Vila has the added weight of the reader's own interpretation and understanding of the character; when I'm reading it, I'm bringing in what I know (and think I know :-)) about them. Whereas even a good OC simply can't have that extra layer. So B7 fiction that concentrates on a whole new set of characters within the B7 framework is simply unlikely to interest me (unless absolutely *brilliant* in itself) to the point of buying it. And <deeply offended sniff> *I like* onboard stories (probably that business of wanting to peek into their private lives again). Sally *With, of course, the exception of the Author's Favourite, who is so misunderstood and unappreciated by everyone *except* Wonderful Creation. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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