Blakes7 February 2001

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80 participants
929 discussions

Re: Patriarchy (was Deliverance)
by Sarah Thompson 14 Feb '01

14 Feb '01

> Fiona wrote: > >Well, there are a fair few female persons in positions of power in UK > >society, too, and that doesn't make it any less patriarchal-- just as > having > >some African-Americans in positions of power does not make the US any less > >racially stratified. IMO, anyway... Re: the second half of that, yes. Particularly considering that the African American currently in the position of greatest power got there by (a) orchestrating the killing of thousands of Asians a few decades back, and (b) condoning the systematic disenfranchisement of thousands of his own people by the party that put him in power. I would also like to point out in our defense that there has been vast improvement in this regard over the past eight years, under the Clinton administration, which IMO is precisely why the Republicans hate Clinton with such a crazed passion that they have to make up wild lies about him, such as we've recently heard from Ellynne (more about that, with suitable B7 references, later). Compare Bush Jr.'s cabinet to Bush Sr.'s and you see the difference that Clinton made-- today the Republicans have to put in far more token blacks and token women to try to give the impression that they're not biased . Of course, as we all learned from Margaret Thatcher, an individual from one of the traditional out groups can be as nasty as any white male once in power. Re: the first half, Tavia added: > > That's entirely different. There's good evidence that UK society was > overtly patriarchal less than 100 years ago, and so one needs a reasonable > mass of evidence to counter the idea of it being so today. (Leaving open > the question of whether it is or not.) Yes, clearly things have improved a lot in this respect, in the UK and elsewhere, so the question is more a matter of where you draw the line and say "OK, it's not a patriarchy any more." Does that mean no gender-based discrimination at all? Or only a little, perhaps? Another thought about Deliverance: do we know for sure that Meegat even wanted to be a priestess and Messiah-greeter? Maybe she didn't, but was chosen by lot and agreed to do her duty. Maybe the reason she looks so happy to see Avon is that now that the Messiah has arrived, she will soon be off the hook of obligation and can go and do whatever else she may have had in mind-- marrying her true love, perhaps, and/or pursuing some exciting activity that she had had to set aside to be a priestess. Re: the idea that technology, as personified by Avon in Deliverance, is a masculine quality: but what about the scenes with Vila and the huntresses in "Powerplay," and of course the infamous "Power"? In both of those episodes we see a male/female social split, but with the women associated with the technological side. Sarah T.

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Re: Re: [B7L] Re: Deliverance, Gender and Technology
by Fiona Moore 14 Feb '01

14 Feb '01

> --- Natasa Tucev <tucev(a)tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu> wrote: > > > Helen wrote: > > > > Many people who feel technology without philosphy > > is > > >ruining the planet like to embrace goddess-worship > > as part of their > > >world view, which suggests even most rebels against > > society are buying > > >into the technical/man-- emotional/woman dichotomy > > of the mainstream > > >culture. (This ties in with the thread about how > > even rebelling from the > > >culture, we a shaped by it). > > > > I don't agree. I don't think there's anything > > sexist, or culturally > > prejudiced, in seeing Earth as feminine. Ask Ellynne > > or Fiona and I think > > they will agree that numerous mythologies throughout > > the world which haven't > > had any interaction with each other view the Earth > > as such. Earth is mother. You're quite right here; offhand I can't think of a single society in which the Earth *isn't* seen as feminine (although interestingly the sea is seen as male by the ancient Greeks, IIRC). And I should also add that to believe in an earth goddess is not necessarily to be a new-age eco-rebel (e.g., as you point out, the Chinese have one). > > On the other hand, I feel that very often feminists > > are missing the point, > > fighting for women's right to fill the positions > > which were previously > > filled by men, within the structures which still > > remain essentially governed > > by the masculine principle. I agree with you completely here (even as I compete for a job in a still-mostly-male profession... sigh). However, I have hope that we may someday achieve gender equality-- it *is* getting easier for men to do traditionally "feminine" activities, which is my personal benchmark. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: Deliverance
by Helen Krummenacker 14 Feb '01

14 Feb '01

> That "Probably" sounded pretty definite to me :). Anyway, you don't *enjoy* > embarrassment, do you, even probably? Um, yes, sometimes. After I make a dirty joke, I blush bright red, hide my face in my hands, but I'm also a little proud I had the guts to say it. When someone gives me praise I don't deserve I feel awkward and want to slink off, but I'm also aware I'm supposed to like being praised so I teeter between wanting to vanish and being kind of happy they think I'm great. Even when I'm *not* enjoying myself a bit, I react to embarrassment usually by grinning, which confuses the people around me about my emotions.

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Re: Re: etc Deliverance
by jan b 14 Feb '01

14 Feb '01

What I said really wasn't intended to be snide, although I can see now how it sounded that way. I'm sorry. Yes, I admit I'm out of my depth. No, don't enjoy embarrassment. And yes I have missed the etiquette of the lyst. Once again, I apologise. Nothing I said was intended to offend or have hidden meanings. Jan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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RE: [B7L] Patriarchy (Was: Deliverance)
by Tavia Chalcraft 14 Feb '01

14 Feb '01

Fiona wrote: >Well, there are a fair few female persons in positions of power in UK >society, too, and that doesn't make it any less patriarchal-- just as having >some African-Americans in positions of power does not make the US any less >racially stratified. IMO, anyway... That's entirely different. There's good evidence that UK society was overtly patriarchal less than 100 years ago, and so one needs a reasonable mass of evidence to counter the idea of it being so today. (Leaving open the question of whether it is or not.) In B7 times, we don't know much about the history between their present day and ours, so the question is a good deal more open and smaller amounts of evidence might be assumed to settle it against patriarchy. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Re: Subtext vs Character
by J MacQueen 14 Feb '01

14 Feb '01

>From: "Una McCormack" <una(a)q-research.connectfree.co.uk> >Neil wrote: > > Britney Spears comes from St Helens? >She's not classy enough to come from St Helens. Should've suggested Mount St Helens, Una. Then you could've made reference to Volcano and been completely on topic. Regards Joanne (<grin> of course, you might have to reconfigure Ms Spears' DNA so that she becomes a penguin, if you want to be really on topic...) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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redemption panel
by Alison Page 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Hasty typing. When I said 'my' panel, it was very ambiguous. I'm in a really good mood today and that makes me careless, but I meant 'the panel I am involved in', not 'the panel I have ownership of'. It didn't occur to me but in retrospect it is obvious, so apologies to those whose toes I have inadvertently crushed. It was just well-intentioned enthusiasm. Alison

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Neil again: >Not only 12 words shorter, reducing the speech by >67% without reducing information content, but also - >IMO - much more in character for Avon. One of the things I was told when I started to write (nonfiction) a long while back was to remove 20% of one's first draft words... Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Re: Subtext vs Character
by J MacQueen 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

>From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner(a)tesco.net> >Go and read 'At The Mountains of Madness' again. Some penguins *are* >Cthulhu cultists. Be afraid, everyone. We aren't dealing with normal penguins anymore. Yes, Neil, Una, I know, what are normal penguins... Regards Joanne (who spent part of last night trying to match B7 characters with songs from the soundtrack to the '80s ABC series "Sweet and Sour". As long as I don't try the same for "Footloose" or whatever...) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 13 Feb '01

13 Feb '01

Neil wrote: >Oh, Tavia, you really have been missing out! Well, I'm hoping to waylay the zine library at Redemption and find out just what I've been missing. >Mary-Sue comes in strange guises sometimes. Sometimes she takes over Cally or Vila. >Occasionally she's an ocf from the series itself (like a Vega story where she goes by the name >of Levett). I've seen multiple Cally, Vila and Blake Mary-Sues -- I think Blake ones are more common than people would believe. I propagate a decent Avon one myself (and have been doing since long before I wrote B7 stuff), but no-one seems to notice (or perhaps everyone's too polite to tell me off?). And I *liked* the Vega story, despite the overt M-S characteristics. How come regurgitating the author is called 'realism' in original fiction and 'Mary-Sueing' in fanfiction? Tavia

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Blakes7 February 2001