Blakes7 February 2001

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80 participants
929 discussions

all our pomp of yesteryear
by Alison Page 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Iain recalled redemption - >'Political System in SF' panel... the rather disturbing (not to say embarrassing) anti-American jingoism that kept rearing its >ugly head. Well, I don't know. I think there's a difference between criticising a state, or a political system and criticising 'Americans'. I'm sure when the British Empire controlled about a quarter of the earth, people across the world were highly critical of the institutions of that empire, and I think that was quite a good thing for all concerned. Horizon is definitely on this subject, but I guess people from other countries lose nothing by taking it in their own ways, and referring back to their own histories. In this panel we were talking about the SF idea of 'utopia'. There always seems to be a country which has a lot of power at any one time. At the moment the US is in such a position. I think both history and SF say that hegemony comes and goes. But perhaps it is quite understandable for some people in the currently dominating system to think that it is a uniquely good, uniquely enviable, and uniquely immortal system. In other words to start to use utopian terms. The Romans did it, the Chinese did it, the English did it. Probably the Huns, Aztecs and Hittites did too. More thoughtful people - even Kipling the poet of empire said - soon we will be one with Nineveh and Tyre. So I think two critical attitudes are quite appropriate for people to take towards the currently dominating world power(s) - to criticise a powerful system in so far as it imposes on other nations, or conflicts with the traditions of those nations (though realising that sometimes traditions do need to be overthrown) - to criticise the complacent attitude that any one particular system is utopian or approaching utopia which is *occasionally* found in any highly successful economic or political system And I do think these serious points can be made using irreverent remarks. But none of this is to criticise American people themselves, who after all are just as likely to criticise their own government and institutions as we are, probably more so. Alison

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FW: [B7L] Re: Gay Subtexts
by Roberts, Patricia ＠ CSE 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Fiona Moore > wrote: > "Not sure where, to be honest, but it was banned on its initial US release in the early 1980s-- the PBS station(s) showing it just started from Space Fall. Which information I have from Gareth Thomas, in case you want to know the source." The initial US release was on the Philadelphia PBS station in 1985-86. IMO Gareth may be mistaken. Nothing was banned here. The series was run twice. The first time was five days a week, Monday-Friday. The second time was once a week for 52 weeks. Made it very easy to tape it twice. Now I have 3 copies, the first 2 off the air and the 3rd, the "professional" tapes. Pat

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Re: H/C (was in clam discussion)
by Betty Ragan 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

<Betty looks at subject line of her last post> Gee. Were we talking about clams? I thought it was penguins... (And did I just hijack my own thread with inappropriate frivolity? ;)) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Re: To apologise or not to apologise
by Betty Ragan 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Tavia wrote: > These are also very interesting premises for PGP, but I disagree that you > can wring even more angst out of a situation with Blake alive than with > Blake dead. A dead Blake who can't understand or forgive gives me an angst > reading of 1, as does a live Blake who can't forgive, and a live forgiving > Blake scenario where Avon can't accept the absolution offered. You're quite right, of course; it's entirely possible to peg out the angst-o-meter with a dead Blake. :) What I probably should have said is that having Blake live can present a whole different set of angst possibilities with which to peg out said meter, and for those who are into angst, it's pretty natural to want to delve into those, as well. I do agree with you about wanting to keep the tragedy, though, which is why I firmly believe they're *all* dead, no matter how much I might enjoy the occasional PGP. > Actually, I think Betty's reasons (a) and (b) are the most likely > explanations. Although they don't actually explain my *own* occasional attempts at foraying into PGP-land... For me, it's definitely the angst thing. :) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Re: [B7L] Re: H/C (was in clam discussion)
by Ashton7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/27/01 2:40:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, bragan(a)aoc.nrao.edu writes: << <Betty looks at subject line of her last post> Gee. Were we talking about clams? I thought it was penguins... >> I like my clams fried. With tartar sauce. And just what *did* the crew eat in Blakes 7? Annie

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alternative acting
by Alison Page 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Iain just posted about Una and Calle's scene. >Which was, quite honestly, vastly better than the original I was present for this, and I really wish you could all have seen it. It was extremely interesting to see it performed in this way. I think part of the success was that Una and Calle spoke the words quite quietly and intimately. They both showed more vulnerability and tenderness than PD and what's her name did. I don't want to seem to be simply slagging off Paul D, who I think was pivotal in creating the Avon character we know and love, but I think on this occasion he was perhaps poorly directed (who was the director? I'm sure you all know). Also perhaps it was hastily recorded, and things just had to be thrown together in a rush. Elsewhere in the acting overview workshop Iain showed other scenes with PD in, and they were all much more successful. Alison

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Re: [B7L] Re: Brit-char-speak
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/27/01 6:42:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, una(a)q-research.connectfree.co.uk writes: << Leah wrote: > In a message dated 2/22/01 2:07:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > una(a)q-research.connectfree.co.uk writes: > > << > If anyone can point to > > something distinctly British within the entire run of the B7 series, it'll be > > news to me; I've never noticed. > > The way it shifts between film and videotape. >> > > You know, you're absolutely right. British shows sometimes use film for > outdoor shots, video for indoor shots as a regular technique. This is so rare > on American TV as to be almost non-existent (generally, a series is either > video or it's film. The *only* time you'll see video appear in a filmed > episode is when the script calls for the character to appear in news footage, > or to deliberately convey that the character is being seen through a video > camera). But this is external, a peculiarity of cinematography in the UK; it > doesn't really convey anything British about the *content* of the plot, or > the characters within that filming. >> Hey, changing the goalposts! You said point to something distinctly British, and I did! Actually, I disagree. I think it contributes subtly but essentially to the feel of the show - claustrophobic interiors, grainy exteriors. An essential part of the classic era of BBC TV production, now sadly gone.>> Una, whassamatta, you? Where above did I say that the video-film switching was a "bad" thing, that you had to disagree with? For goodness sakes, let's calm down and stop regarding national differences as battlefields. I had absolutely no problem with the switching. As for the deficient production values...big deal. I chose to ignore them in favor of a terrific set of characterizations and stories. Sheesh, it ain't as if there weren't similarly cheesy American SF shows, ever. Does this prove one country or another is inferior? None of it's worth squabbling over. Let's play virtual tourist and enjoy each other's differences instead. Much more fun. Leah

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Re: [B7L] Re: Brit-char-speak
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/27/01 7:16:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ijc(a)bas.ac.uk writes: << Horizon is based, in some detail, on the British rule of India. The people of Horizon have a caste system, and are played by actors of Indian origin. The Federation encourages the ruling caste of Horizon to send its children to Earth to be educated, thus creating a native-born ruling class which is indoctrinated in and sympathetic to Federation culture. Horizon is economically exploited, but not physically colonised: there are no ships full of Earth settlers. The two (white) Federation men even have appropriate accents -- and my memory may be failing me, but I think both their outfits and Ro's suit echo 19th century India.<< And yet, knowing all these things back when I first saw this episode, I never once saw this parallel as a viewer, nor did any of the elements evoke anything particularly British Empire to me. I saw a remote planet of exploited dark-skinned indigenous humans who apparently wear a lot of feathers in their native dress, some of whom are sent "back East" for a white man's education. If the above reminded me of anything, it was the American treatment of our *own* Indians. Obviously, the analogy was meant to be applicable to Imperialism and Colonials in general, not just the British example. There were viking-like tribes with chieftains in another episode. Does this mean B7 was Norse? There were motorcycle-type gangs on another episode. Does this make B7 Mad-Max post-apocalyptic Australian? There were cabaret-type casinos in Gambit. Does this make B7 Monte Carlo? Every single episode with a planet story has similar examples. Leah This is hardly coincidence. It's very natural for a British writer, writing about a vast colonial power, to draw on the British Empire. The most important part of the British Empire was India, not just economically but culturally, so it's not surprising that its influence should be felt even in a cheap sci-fi show. It occurs to me that I really should have raised this example at the 'Political System in SF' panel. It might just have got us away from the rather disturbing (not to say embarrassing) anti-American jingoism that kept rearing its ugly head. >>

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Re: [B7L] To apologise or not to apologise
by Tavia Chalcraft 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

M wrote about PGP stories: >When we see Blake and when it is written about, Blake is usually >some-how still alive. First, I'm not 100% convinced that your premise is correct. I've read quite a lot of PGP stories where Blake is dead and Avon is alive, and also quite a few where they all die. There are also some stats somewhere, I think? Does anyone here recall where? >However why is this? At first it seems obvious >Blake is still alive, the hero, the 'Captain Kirk', however I think the >answer is more to do with Avon. We need to some-how give him >absolution - this is proven by the fact that if Blake is killed, Avon >must some-how be insane, not just killed him outright. Do we >need Avon to not have committed this crime so much, we try to >absolve him? Part of Avon is that he is ruthless, I myself am an >Avon fan and have been guilty of it, however I think I am starting >to see where the reputation for Avon fans always trying to excuse >him comes from. He cannot be allowed to commit a henious crime >or he must some-how be noble? What do other people think??? I personally tend to prefer the 'Blake is really dead' genre of PGP because, to me, one of the main attractions of B7 as a series is the tragedy of Blake dying at the hands of a friend/colleague/lover (delete as applicable). If Blake somehow survives it feels a bit as if, I dunno, Romeo and Juliet were to get up off their slabs at the end and say, got you there! If Blake is dead and Avon survives then one possible interesting challenge to the writer is to give him absolution without the convenience of having Blake there to forgive. Another is to see whether someone in that situation can carry on living *without* absolution, or can find their own path to absolution. My personal take on this is that the writer has to re-persuade Avon that the acts of the Federation are even more evil than killing Blake, and so absolution might be found in fighting the Federation, ie taking on Blake's mantle (as suggested by the final minutes of 'Blake'). Betty: >A dead Blake may make for a lot of Avon-angst, but a Blake >who managed to survive can make for even *more* (with >the added extra bonus of Blake-angst!). Not only does the >poor bastard have to deal with the fact that he killed Blake >(or tried to), but he has to deal with it *in Blake's presence*. >(And which is worse for Avon? A Blake who forgives him, >or a Blake who doesn't?) For those who like angst, this >possibility can be postitively irresistable. Letting Blake be >dead is too *much* of a happy ending. :) These are also very interesting premises for PGP, but I disagree that you can wring even more angst out of a situation with Blake alive than with Blake dead. A dead Blake who can't understand or forgive gives me an angst reading of 1, as does a live Blake who can't forgive, and a live forgiving Blake scenario where Avon can't accept the absolution offered. Actually, I think Betty's reasons (a) and (b) are the most likely explanations. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Re: in calm discussion (was Deliverance)
by Tavia Chalcraft 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Fiona wrote: >Oh, guys, this HURTS. This really, bloody hurts. You >may feel like a lab rat, but to be honest, I feel like >someone who has spoken up in favour of animal >experimentation and come home to find my car burnt >down and my house smashed up by animal rights >activists... I apologise if I inadvertently offended you, Fiona. All I was trying to do was say -- speaking as an analytical person, and moreover one who's volunteered for numerous psychology studies -- that I could empathise with *both* sides here. Tavia

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Blakes7 February 2001