Blakes7 February 2001

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80 participants
929 discussions

Re: [B7L] Re: Subtext vs Character
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Neil wrote: <If Blake's behaviour in Horizon (the communal eating scene) is anything too by, it would have said exactly the same things in an even more obvious way.> Well - to go back two days' worth of thread - he's even less of a rocket scientist than Jenna or Avon. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] characters vs interesting stuff
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Una wrote: <Plot is the annoying stuff you have to manufacture in order to get characters from interesting ethical dilemma 1 to interesting ethical dilemma 2.> Or steal from someone else. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: 25%
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Neil wrote: <Actually I think these figures are next to useless, especially in the case of rescues (in compiling the Sevencyclopaedia I tended to overlook rescues, partly because they were often so difficult to define).> Possibly, but it does make sense that the three top rescuees are Dayna, Blake *and Tarrant* - definitely the ones most caution-and-common-sense-challenged, wouldn't you agree? What suprises me is that Tarrant isn't down for any rescues - I wonder where my image of him as Lord of the Cavalry Charges comes from? Anyone? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Re [B7L] Deliverance - keg marxist take
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

A couple more thoughts, entirely frivolous (I'm going back to the Shallow Side, people). Re the talk of imperialism, H Rider Haggard etc and She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed, I found her and the book extremely funny, but that could be 'cause I was exposed to Rumpole's 'She' first ... ... and Neil's "It is glib propaganda for armchair adventurers who need to be reassured that civilisation amounts to supremacy and that technological sophistication is the only kind worth a damn." Errrmmm ... this is of course why Nation also showed us that White Man armed with wonderful super-futuristic guns is no match for Hairy Barbarian armed with amazing polystyrene rocks and stones, and has to run away (and would have been Up Creek without paddle had not Grecian-robed Barbarian saved him :-)). "Ultimately, it endorses a self-granted mandate to invade the lives of so-called inferior peoples ..." Now be fair. Our Heroes did *not* go to the planet either to exploit nor to explore but to resuce people who'd landed their by 'accident' then rescue one of the rescuers. They had no intention of sticking around long enough to set eyes on the so-called inferiors, let alone invade their lives - it's really the other way around, said peoples invaded their lives, and rather stroppily. As far as the tribespeople are concerned, Our Heroes did nothing more than take back what was theirs (one of their crewmates) and then leave. And - lest we all forget - Avon doing the technological whizz-bang bit (and I still think one should have to do more than press a few buttons to achieve godhood, BTW) WAS ALL MEEGAT'S IDEA. She not only aksed him to, she made it rather more than difficult for him to demur. This particular 'inferior peoples' dragged was the one dragging the 'superior' one into the whole thing. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re [B7L] Deliverance - keg marxist take
by Natasa Tucev 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

The Marxist Department of the Lyst established: >What we have here, then, is a pernicious piece of colonialist nostalgia, >wistfully dreaming of the good old days when the sun never set on the >Empire. It is glib propaganda for armchair adventurers who need to be >reassured that civilisation amounts to supremacy and that technological >sophistication is the only kind worth a damn. Ultimately, it endorses a >self-granted mandate to invade the lives of so-called inferior peoples, >prove one's superiority and promptly walk out again without care or >consideration for the consequences. Bravo! Bravo! Excellent! Let us be fair to B7, however, and note that in general its underlying world-view is far from being imperialistic. The Federation are the imperialists, and they are the bad guys. As for the rebels, from the very beginning it is the case of 'proles of all planets unite'. Bran Foster's gang of rebels who live on Earth (cultural centre) neither resent nor despise the inhabitants of the Outer Planets (cultural periphery), but discuss the ways to help them gain independence. Also, take 'Horizon', with its obvious allusions to India, and see how Blake encourages Ro to break away from the colonizing influence upon his mind, ask himself what his father (i.e., the past, ancestry, tradition) would do, and act accordingly. N.

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Re: 25%
by Helen Krummenacker 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

> > Helen wrote: > <What always sticks out in my mind is how d*mn many times Blake needed > Avon to bail him out.> > > Oh yes, but be fair, just about *everyone* got their turn at rescuing > Fearless Leader, including people they never even met (Rashel, for > instance). > Precisely! Blake needed rescuing more often, I think, than any of the gals. Although since Cally had 3 seasons, I could be wrong. Blake was rescued both by male and (as you just pointed out) female characters.

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Re: Deliverance
by Helen Krummenacker 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

> True. What I meant was, ignore the characters as characters, but don't > ignore them as representations of an ideological position. See them for > *what* they stand for, rather than *who* they are. > > EG: Avon - educated, civilised, visitor, knowing, scientific. And male, of > course. > Meegat - uneducated, primitive, native, ignorant, spiritual. And female, by > some strange quirk of coincidence. > This only works if you agree characters are *meant* to be symbols, rather than people. As a writer, I try to write my characters, for the most part, as people. Only the bad guys symbolize the part they play (nasty-minded criminal; greedy corporate person who has no conscience yet exploits people without breaking laws; thrill-seeker). I myself am an educated yet degreeless woman who is strongly disposed towards science but has had some 'psychic' experiences which I believe have a scientific explanation that will one day be discovered and religious ideas that have been influenced by my upbringing yet differ from my parents' and certainly divert from the mainstream of society. People are complex and do not 'represent' something unless they choose to do so (in real life) or are chosen to do so (by the author in fiction). To do a literary analysis is to impose one's own views on a situation, and as the analysist has a strong need to FIND symbolism, they will create it where it may very well not exist. Don't say that's not true. We've all had to write papers for English class where we knew perfectly well we were shovelling it but had to make a point and back it up to get the grades we needed. Well, most of us. Some people may really beieve all the symbols they uncover are truely meant as such.

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Re:hurt/comfort-- why Avon?
by Helen Krummenacker 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

> Gan, > being a big, powerful man *isn't* physically vulnerable, and the amount of > hurt involved to - well, *hurt* - would probably go rather a long way beyond > my squick factor. Avon underwent 4 days of torture before tehy sent in Shrinker. I seem to remember some stains that would suggest blood had been drawn at times; there were screams in the background as Shrinker talked to him. He underwent this voluntarily. At any point he could have turned off his transmitter and been pulled out by his friends. Just because Gan's bigger doesn't mean he can take more without being bothered. In fact, it could be argured a large man would hardly ever be physically attacked and might not have much resistance to it. Add to that his Limiter keeping him from being able to use the full amount of force, and I would say he is more vulnerable than Avon.

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Re: [B7L] Re:hurt/comfort-- why Avon?
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Ellynne wrote: <Skipping Avon's ability to endure torture for four days and his desire too off and enjoy possible death from radiation WITHOUT a group bonding experience, I think he'd make an awful patient.> <gurgle> couldn't agree with you more, and in quite a few stories he *is*, he *is* (one of the most unlikely - to *me* - ones was with Avon ill and Gan playing nurse - and mollycoddling him. And Avon liked it. Oh dear oh dear oh dear ...) Thinking about this, I got to thinking some more about the actual stories - among those I love - that I *would* say carried a strong (not necessarily sole) h/c thread. After all, it doesn't have to be h/c and nothing else - and in a good story, often isn't. My taste is mostly A-B (bet that all surprised you <g>) and includes slash, so perhaps my impressions would be different to someone who only read/enjoyed gen. But I did come up with a few suggestions that maybe can help explain ... or not. Anyway. The Macchiavelli Factor - the central part of this involves a thread of pure, classic A-B hurt comfort with all the trappings: Avon near death but hanging on by sheer will, Avon being a <ahem> difficult if not impossible patient, lots of fireworks with Blake enforcing the care and comfort and Avon getting narky about it, the odd and very breif moments when Avon lets his vulnerability/well-hidden feelings show (he's usually barely conscious <g>), a big blow-up and the obligatory working it all out emotional bit. Lovely: and a good illustration *of* the point I made about Blake being a good comfortee because Avon can't bullock him. The Thousandth Man - lots of hurt and plenty of guilt-laced angst (Avon's being torured, Blake's forced to watch); Avon's too badly hurt to let the emotions out *verbally*, so there's a reliance on him instinctive (semi-consciously) turning to Blake for the help he needs. Well, that's the way *I* read it ... The Road to Hell - I don't know if anyone else would call this one h/c, but I would argue it belongs in there. Blake's suffering, Avon's as guilty as hell and is *trying* (in a perfectly Avonish way) to help and atone for it, while trying to appear his normal stand-offish self. A/B does have one element to up the angst level that others don't manage as well - the guilt factor. Since it's so easy to propose that whatever HORRIBLE THINGS are happening to Avon, they're probably a result of his less-than-wholehearted involvement in Blake's rebellion, there's a perfect (and seldom overlooked) way to [a] turn the emotional thumbscrews up a notch on Fearless Leader and [b] provide more fireworks if Avon then turns on *him* over it. Making one of the others 'at fault' for everything takes considerably more work. One more think I just thunk - the wonderful world of PGPs. From my reading, one has to say that hurt-comfort is a common element in most of the non-tragic ones; possibly not deliberate, but it's almost inherent in the setup, Blake shot, Avon the guilty party, their lives in shambles. The h/c element is *especially* prevalent in the subset that Susan Beth wonderfully labelled "Avon shot Blake, poor Avon ..." _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: the patriarchy
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

After helen wrote: <Of course, Cally and Jenna should have had better roles with more leadership.> Ellynne replied: <Better roles, yes. Leadership, Jenna only. Whether because she had a certain reserve or because she was self-conscious of her outsider status, Cally never struck me as the leader type.> Interesting ... if I was to allow it for either, I'd've gone the other way. Jenna's breif stint at 2-i-c in Bounty is good, but other than that she's a leaner when she's got someone strong to lean *on* (notice that in most battles, she sits back and waits for Blake to make all the decisions she *ought* to be doing, or at least suggesting as pilot: Breakdown and Redemption the most glaring examples). Cally would be a reluctant leader but I think has the strength (well, up till she turns into Super-Marmee) to mould herself into the role, as Avon had to. Problem is, does she have the force of *personality*? Could Cally have taken over as leader after Star One, if she'd decided that they had to keep fighting? Dunno ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Blakes7 February 2001