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5511 discussions

Gan, genius and preconceptions
by Tavia 11 May '01

11 May '01

Apropos of the Gan debate (which I haven't been reading so apologies if this is repetition), it occurs to me that there's very little real evidence for Gan being any less intelligent than the average of the Liberator crew, excluding Avon and Orac (at least if you take at face value people/AI's opinions of their intellect). We see him in a mere 17 episodes, mostly in a background role. During which time, he acts as a de facto leader at least twice (Space Fall, Cygnus Alpha), he takes a stand against Blake's decisions (Shadow), he learns to pilot Liberator, he takes a technical role in its maintenance (Redemption), he's shown learning from Orac and being lectured to by Avon (about the auto-repair mechanism). [Sorry some of my memory is faulty as to episode.] I actually see the incident where he's learning from Orac as being quite important to establishing his character -- yes perhaps he's less well educated than some of the other crew members, but he's willing and able to learn as an adult, which IMO correlates with intelligence. I wonder if there isn't a bit of a perception bias here. We have Gan the 'gentle and slow giant' to go with Blake the 'hero', Avon the 'genius' and Vila the 'cunning thief'. Size isn't the only metric. Tavia

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McVeigh
by Harriet Monkhouse 11 May '01

11 May '01

Catching up on my newspaper backlog from the bank holiday weekend, my eye fell on this paragraph in a feature about the Oklahoma bomber by Jon Ronson in the Guardian Weekend magazine. "McVeigh was fully aware that innocent secretaries and receptionists would be killed as a result of the massive truck bomb he detonated on April 19, 1995. But he was a keen Star Wars fan and he compared those innocents to the 'space-age clerical workers inside the Death Star. Those people weren't storm troopers. But they were vital to the operations of the Evil Empire. And when Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star, the movie audiences cheered. The bad guys were beaten. That was all that really mattered.'" I can understand if no one feels like having the Blake-at-Star-One thing just now, but it did make me pause to think about why McVeigh feels wrong and Blake mostly right. Real dead people instead of fictional ones? The photo of the small child being carried out of the building? The fact that, even at my most jaundiced, I don't quite put any part of American government on a par with the Federation? Or just that McVeigh is at the furthest part of the political spectrum from me? -- Harriere "Risin' sun goin' down." - Robert Johnson

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Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

Sally Manton wrote: > > > >Jenny wrote: > ><It didn't say he *had.* It said he dreamt of it when in his prison cell. > >Which rather suggests that he's criminally minded, and wants to commit > >crimes. Including violent ones, it seems.> > > > >That's still no proof - none whatsoever - that he was arrested or convicted > >of killing anyone. Sally, I suggest that next time you read my entire email before replying. > > > ><We don't know the circumstances under which Avon kills the visa seller, > >and> >Avon at least had a motive. Doran shoots two unarmed people and jokes about > >it-- again, more the action of a habitual killer than someone killing > >because they have to.> > > > >None of which is relevant. Is that right? Avon still killed the man - he says so himself > >(and I doubt of even a corrupt judiciary would take 'he tried to turn me in > >as I was trying to buy illegal visas' as a defence) - but his conviction > >was > >for something else. Quite possibly, he was never suspected or arrested for > >the murder, When did I suggest that he was? > >and there's no reason to assume that Doran was either. Except for the fact that murder come easily to him, perhaps? > ><A man kills one guard and has an implant in his head (which doesn't even > >seem to stop him killing, or getting into states in which he might kill)?> > > > >The limiter is clearly both very rare (we don't see it anywhere else, none > >of the others have ever heard of it before) They haven't encountered it because they have had no reason to. They are not psychopathic killers. Well not in the sense that Gan is anyway. > >and seemingly prone to > >malfunction - it doesn't work very well. I think it works very well for what it does. > > > >My guess is that it was an experimental thing, and that prisoners were > >allocated to the experimenters to work on. Scientists in Nazi Germany were > >allowed to carry out all kinds of experiments on prisoners, and I can see > >the same sort of morality working just fine in the Federation. A theory not supported by the evidence. Kayn and Renor knows what a limiter is and speak of it in a very matter-of-fact way-- not as if it's something rare. Are they in on the experiment too? But to test > >something designed to stop people killing, It manifestly isn't designed to stop him killing. it would make sense to trial it > >on prisoners known to kill - and it's quite in character for them to target > >those convicted of killing state functionaries (police, politicians, > >troopers) as an added turn of the punishment screw. Is that right? It also makes sense to conduct this experiment on Cygnus Alpha as well, does it? Where there is no one to actually observe the experiment? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Dayna's family
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

Ellynne G wrote: > > > >"Jenny Kaye" wrote: > > > > > > >As the local populace wanted to kill Hal, Dayna and Lauren, I think it's > > > > >unlikely that they would have got any help from that quarter. > > > >Sorry, guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been. > > > >I'm thinking anyone going to the aliens on the corner (or the seashore, > >as the case may be) would have to be pretty desperate with no place else > >to go. Hence, someone whose tribe or whose main supporters within the > >tribe had largely been wiped out. Desperation leads to desperate choices > >and there have been more than a few cases of people in wartime fleeing to > >a traditional enemy even when they weren't sure of their welcome. All true, and nicely put I may add, but there is no evidence within the episode to support this theory. > > Especially > > >when it is the Sarrans that Dayna is practising her skills by killing. > > > >Well, since Dayna was no more than a year old when they moved there, I > >don't think the killing started till later. No, but the fact that she is killing the Sarrans indicates that she has no fellow feeling for them. The fact that her father allows her to do it indicates that he has no fellow feeling for them either. Therefore that strongly suggests that they have had no sustained, direct contact with them-- or if they did that it has not been friendly. > > The > > >script states that Lauren was a child when she joined the Mellanbys, > >there is > > >no evidence that Lauren was also accompanied by anyone else. > > > >It may be that Hal Mellanby is trusting and confides all to people he > >barely knows. It might be a good idea if you went back into the archive and reread the emails between Tavia, Dana, Harriet, Fiona and myself on the subject of Hal Mellanby(in and around the beginning of April-- http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/cgi-bin/getbyid.pl?id=46210 is a good one) but basically what we came up with is that he's a hypocrite and a liar. > > >Both Dayna and her father mention that she has learned, and is learning, > >to > > >master all weapons ancient and modern. There's no reference in the > >script at > > >all to her learning how from the Sarrans or anyone else. > > > >As I tried to say, this was just a thought. But weapons such as bows, > >spears, swords, etc. take a high degree of training and skill to become > >fully expert in their use, rather like various sports or ballet. Dayna got her practice by shooting the Sarrans full of arrows. > >Also, I've never heard of anyone becoming a major expert in one of these > >fields without someone who could tell them what they're doing wrong and > >how to do better. There are many ways she could have learned. From computers, from Justin or some other friend of Hal Mellanby's who turned up for a while (remember she says Justin was "one of the specialist tutors" who came to teach her, which suggests that there were more), watching the Sarrans, her father--if he's an arms dealer then he must have some idea how to use them--in fact Dayna's interest in weapons quite clearly came from her father. > >Hal couldn't be that trainer. It's unlikely > >he would know one offworld or could try and find one on another planet. If you are an expert in weapons design then you are going to know a lot of people who are in similar fields. Hal knowing some one who was an expert in using weapons seems highly probable to me. > >Since the problems in Lauren's adoption had already been pointed out, the idea > >that this person brought Lauren along seemed likely. Occam's razor and > >all that. Yes. The simplest answer is the best:-). The simplest answer is that Lauren was kidnapped by Hal from the Sarrans to provide a playmate for Dayna. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan's woman
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

Harriet Monkhouse wrote: Jenny wrote: > >>But think about it. "My woman." Not "Sarah," or "Becky," or "Jill"; not > >>"someone I cared for" or "a woman who meant a lot to me." Very > >>cavemannish > >>really; it doesn't give her a name or a face or even suggest that there > >>was > >>anything at all between them. > > > >No, the avoidance of her name suggests to me "too private and painful to > >mention". Then why bring it up at all? > >An analogy, happily not a painful example: I once had a colleague who, > >when we first met, always referred to his wife as "my wife". After I > >had met her (and observed that they were a particularly devoted couple), > >he began to use her name in conversation; I concluded that when we were > >merely acquaintances he preferred to preserve a field of privacy around > >her, which he relaxed once we became friends. My wife is not the same as "my woman". When Gan discusses the > >issue with Jenna, they're acquaintances; maybe he might have opened up > >more later, But he doesn't. > >Just listening to some Billie Holiday, which reminds me that she often > >sings about "my man". BH's men invariably seem to be complete jerks, > >but I still feel that, when she sings about them, the term conveys > >intimacy and tenderness. How many jazz singers sing about "my woman" though? It's got a different meaning. And in most of the songs about "my man," as you say, "my man" is an absolute bastard who goes around mistreating women-- not the sort of guy you'd want to feel intimacy and tenderness for, if you don't want to wind up badly hurt: "Tell me he's lazy, tell me he's slow Tell me I'm crazy, well maybe I know, Can't help loving that man of mine..." "That lowdown man of mine Mistreats me all the time He says he loves me only Then goes and leaves me sad and lonely... If he could see through my eyes He'd be the one to cry..." And a rock and roll song, from the Beatles: "I used to be cruel to *my woman* I'd beat her and keep her away from the things that she loved. Man I was mean but I'm changing my scene..." Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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ttfn
by Una McCormack 11 May '01

11 May '01

I'm going no mail in preparation for my jolly to the US, so I'll be chat to you all at the end of the month. Play nicely and have fun! Una --------- Sooty. He is the hollow bear, he is the stuffed bear. Headpiece filled with straw, alas!

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New Guests at Eclectic 21
by sue wadsworth-ladkin 11 May '01

11 May '01

Hi Chaps Just thought you might like to know there are a further two confirmed guests at Eclectic 21; Sylvia Anderson, co-creator of Stingray, Thunderbirds, UFO and Space 1999 and also Andrew Sewell, one of the producer's of the forthcoming Blakes 7 movie. There are still some places left, so if you want to get your registrations in download a form from the website www.eclectic21.co.uk or telephone 01422 376031. Sue Wadsworth-Ladkin _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't all be Geniuses
by Sally Manton 11 May '01

11 May '01

Harriet wrote: <A minute earlier, Avon tells Blake he can't get control of the systems. After Gan tears a couple of sections out, Avon has it sorted in no time. Gan cut the Gordian knot for him.> <gurgle> proof positive that one Golden Rule survives (more or less) into the future - if any mechanical device won't work, try kicking it. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: McVeigh
by Sally Manton 11 May '01

11 May '01

Harriet wrote: <I can understand if no one feels like having the Blake-at-Star-One thing just now, but it did make me pause to think about why McVeigh feels wrong and Blake mostly right.> Probably a whole raft of reasons, but I'll try. All opinions my own, as usual. Is it about the innocents being killed? Noooo ... not entirely. I've seen pictures of children killed by Allied bombing in the war (please note, I am talking about those raids aimed at military targets here, not terror bombing) and though I might find it hard to call *it* 'right', I don't think of it as horrendously 'wrong' in the same way as I do the Oklahoma bombing. My instinctive reaction is that if they were aiming at legitimate military targets, in a 'just' war (those words 'if' and 'just' is both important and extremely personal, something everyone needs to sort out for themselves) then I can say they were 'right' in spite of the unplanned (though not unforseen) consequences. Possibly the particular action, in hindsight, was wrong, but they were right to fight and that does count for something. I can understand and empathise with what they were trying to achieve; I simply have no way to do that with McVeigh. Which brings it back, I suppose, to the cause in question. Maybe it's (at least partly) because many fans *can* understand and empathise with Blake's central motive of destroying a tyranny, (even if disagreeing loudly the means he uses) that he is in that different moral basket. And I've also no doubt part of it *is* because they're all fictional. After all - to take the process one step further - look at Servalan, who destroyed a whole race (no doubt including infant Auranar who would have looked just as pathetic in photographs) for selfish reasons. Yet many fans still admire her and even cheer in those episodes where she wins. Even *she* doesn't feel 'wrong' in the same, visceral way, because it's removed by the fiction and the fantasy. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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We can't all be Geniuses
by Helen Krummenacker 11 May '01

11 May '01

> He's not stupid. He doesn't act stupid. It's just the company he > keeps. > > Jenny said (of Gan): Oh, he does act stupid. There's a lot of Gan's actions which are put > down by > a lot of people (including the crew) to his being stupid-- not > checking to > see if Jenna was behind him on Cephlon, or tearing out the computer > banks in > "Breakdown." But if he's doing these things, and he's not stupid, why > is he > doing them? > Breakdown-- he has very strange things going on in his brain because his limiter is malfunctioning. Maybe the pretty sparkling lights irritated him. Maybe he was getting revenge on the computers for all the times he didn't know what button to press. I cannot see that as typical behavior for him. On Cephlon, I believe everyone was on board ship before anyone noticed Jenna missing? Does that mean Vila and Avon are also stupid? Or that when one is on a very hostile planet one doesn't always look around to see if everyone else is okay, especially if the other person is believed to be comptetent in a dangerous situation.

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