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5511 discussions

Re: Blake vs. McVeigh
by Helen Krummenacker 11 May '01

11 May '01

rs said: (re blowing up building w/daycare center) Blake, OTOH, would have done his research. And he would have felt personally guilty about killing 19 children under the age of 6. I'm not sure he would have researched enough to know that, but hopefully, yes. Once he had, it would have changed the way he planned. He might have chosen a different target. Or, if he needed to attack that place for a very serious reason (such as getting decoding crystals), he would have assigned one group to evacuate the children or something. He would not have accepted them as direct casualties of his actions. In taking out Star One, there was a risk lives would be lost, but there was no way of predicting where or how. If natural disasters happened, hopefully emergency measures could be taken to prevent losses. Traffic control failures might kill more. In all probabilty the main loss of life would be in the uprisings Blake was counting on to throw off the shackles of the Federation. And with no central computer to coordinate the Federation's military, the major loss of life would be among adult combatants, not children. Or so Blake must have hoped. I don't really like the Star One decision; it didn't bring down the Federation so if not for the Andromedan menace (which they had not foreseen), it would seem to have been a mistake. But that's 20-20 hindsight.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan's woman
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

Some woman said:-): > >That some other woman said: > > That another woman wrote: > >: <Suppose he'd said, 'a trooper killed Bobby. She meant everything to me. > >We were to be married. When she died, a part of me died as well.'> > > > >: If he'd said that, I'd have checked the tape for what show I'd got on > >'cause it sure wouldn't be Blake's 7 :-) The point I was making was that if the author wanted to be explicit about Gan's conections to this "woman" then he could have easily done so. That fact that he didn't is the point. > >: What Gan says - 'my woman' - is IMO perfectly in tune with the general > >tone > >: of the language used in the series, especially by people within the > >: federation itself Is that so? Give me some examples then. You don't spill your emotions to > >: people when you've spent your life not knowing who you can trust. But in Time Squad Gan is saying that he has to stay with the crew of the Liberator because he needs people he can "rely" on. That means he trusts them. Please watch the episode. > >I've been following this thread, and not > >one suggested locution to replace Gan's "my woman" line has rung true to > >me, for exactly the reason Sally gives here. See my answer the the "reason Sally gives". This ties in, for me, to > >the comment Helen just made in response to the idea that Gan's woman > >was the trooper's wife. > > > >Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> wrote: > > > I had never thought of that possibility, but it seems so very in keeping > > > with human nature that I like it very much. It's very plausible and > > > taints Gan with some of the responsibility for what happened to her-- > > > yet another Balke's 7 situation where none of the heroes are > > > squeaky-clean. Sorry, but as there is not one shred of evidence in the series to support this speculation, I have to reject it. > >I think that one of the themes of the series is that nobody is squeaky- > >clean. I interpret this as being because the Federation, the world they're > >in, doesn't allow them to be so clean. I think it's more to do with them being members of the human race. > > > >Back to Gan... to me, the *least* morally dubious statement he can make > >is the one he does. Any elaboration would only give one reason to > >dissect the statement for emotional falsity or lack of moral soundness. > >What he says is straightforward and comprehensible, and not, to my ear, > >sexist. Then listen to it again:-) Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Mellanbys
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > > > > >It may be that Hal Mellanby is trusting and confides all to people > > > he barely knows. > > > > > > It might be a good idea if you went back into the archive and reread > > > the emails between Tavia, Dana, Harriet, Fiona and myself on the subject > > > of Hal Mellanby > > > > >I believe Ellynne was putting out the 'trusting' options as *unlikely*. > >So far, I like [Ellynne's) version better than the lying hypocrite version. Why? > >And none of the arguments about Dayna gleefully killing Sarrans counters > >the possibility that Lauren was the last survivor of a persecuted group > >on Sarran. But it is not supported by any of the evidence we are provided with in the episode. Imagine the last Jews in Nazi Germany manage to escape a > >concentration camp and find refuge in the homes of some technologically > >superior aliens living among humans. Imagine they become friends-- the > >parent dies but the baby girl is raised like a sister to the alien. You can "imagine" all you like; if there is no evidence then it did not happen. > >And like Ellynne, I find > >Lauren's murder/execution bizarre without further explanation. "Welcome > >to your people" means, in Ellynne's theory, they are sending her to join > >her ancestors; consistent with their actions. If they are merely killing > >her because she has been 'contaminated' by outsiders, why do they > >verbally acknowledge her as one of their own? Because she is. Which makes her a traitor. That's probably why Chal doesn't just kill her there and then, but instead "crucifies" her. They are making an example. Jenny who is now going to bed! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan's woman
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

"Sally Manton" wrote: > >Look at Blake in Hostage - "she meant a lot to me once" and that only in > >response to Jenna's direct question (oh, and BTW, he calls Inga 'the girl' > >in this scene rather than use her name. Twice.) But this is after Inga's name has been established. > > > >What the author is IMO trying to tell us is that Gan and the woman weren't > >married. That *is* the simple explanation, after all ... Why would the author want to tell us that? And again, where is the evidence that they were talking about Federation marital customs, and where else is there anything to suggest that calling someone "my woman" means they were their common-law partner? And why is it so important to the script to give a subtle hint that Gan wasn't married that the scriptwriter would go to all that trouble? It makes absolutely no sense for that phrase to be trying to establish that Gan and the woman weren't married. No sense at all. > >(Not that I'm at all wedded to the concept *that* the simplest explanation > >is the best, you understand :-) Evidently. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't all be Geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > > Jenny said (of Gan): Oh, he does act stupid. There's a lot of Gan's > >actions which are put > > > down by > > > a lot of people (including the crew) to his being stupid-- not > > > checking to > > > see if Jenna was behind him on Cephlon, or tearing out the computer > > > banks in > > > "Breakdown." But if he's doing these things, and he's not stupid, why > > > is he > > > doing them? > > > > >Breakdown-- he has very strange things going on in his brain because his > >limiter is malfunctioning. Maybe the pretty sparkling lights irritated > >him. Maybe he was getting revenge on the computers for all the times he > >didn't know what button to press. No. He's getting revenge on Avon for treating him with contempt all those times, by attacking the thing he knows Avon loves. > > I cannot see that as typical behavior for him. Then watch Seek-Locate-Destroy. > >On Cephlon, I believe everyone was on board ship before anyone noticed > >Jenna missing? Does that mean Vila and Avon are also stupid? No. Vila and Avon weren't teamed with Jenna. Gan was though. > > Or that when one is on a very hostile planet one doesn't always look around to > >see if everyone else is okay, especially if the other person is believed > >to be comptetent in a dangerous situation. One also doesn't disappear over a rise, leaving Jenna alone, and then fail to mention that Jenna is missing, or then tell Blake a direct lie that Jenna was just behind one. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan's woman
by Sally Manton 11 May '01

11 May '01

After I wrote: <They're a reticent crowd, after all. We never hear the names of Blake's murdered siblings,> Jenny wrote: <Blake is hardly going to say, "Guess what everyone? I was arrested and convicted on paedophile charges. They weren't true of course." Mud sticks.> But what have the pedophile charges to do with his murdered family? They're two completely separate incidents (the murders being before TWB even starts). I don't follow you. <These people are fictional characters within a fictional universe. Backstory seeds may be sown, but the full back story will only be activated when it is significant to the plot. For example Soolin's history tells us about GP and what we can expect. As a consequence Gan telling us about his "woman" is significant to the episode Time Squad, and Gan's actions in Time Squad are designed to tell us about Gan, or to lay future plot seeds for Gan.> Again, I am aware that they're fictional characters, but I'm having trouble following your reasoning. (For a start, imputing that amount of deep and meaningful intent to two words written in extreme haste by Terry Nation doesn't work for me). What is the difference between Gan's words/actions telling us about Gan, and Soolin's telling us about her? In 'Blake', it could have been shown that she told Dayna - who she's friendly with - some of her history; she'd still have to tell the others, nothing would be lost. But it's made clear she didn't tell Dayna. Therefore, IMO it's an indication of her reserve. We seem to have two systems of interpreting the series here. One of them is the time-honoured (and vastly enjoyable) Playing the Game, which is concerned with internal consistency - external constraints (authorial intent or lack thereof, budget constraints, acting etc) simply doesn't count, what matters is making sense of what's on the screen. The viewer has the right/responsibility to interpret what is on screen without recourse to external factors. It's my preferred system; though I enjoy hearing what the makers thought or intended, it is of far less importance to me than making sense of the on-screen action as a whole (not, I emphasis, episodes in isolation.) The other is that the intent of the writers/actors/etc takes precedence over what the viewer may perceive from the episode; that what Terry Nation/Paul Darrow/David Maloney etc intended has to be factored into the interpretation even if I as viewer don't agree with it (or can't even see it). Personally, though I'm always interested to hear what these people have to say, I'm not much interested in doing things this way (especially when I find Playing the Game more satisfying) especially when what Terry Nation/Paul Darrow/David Maloney etc intended has to be interprete anyway and we all disagree on what they meant to say. I can and have done this in literary criticism, but I'm not about to do it in fandom. <grin> perhaps all posts need a multiple warning system - Character Junkie Who Plays The Game and Sometimes Forgets the IMHOs ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters/Terminal
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

Jacqui wrote: > >Avon might have expected Vila and Cally to think back to > >when Blake did something similar in 'Trial' - and that if they did not, Zen > >would tell them anyway. It is not necessary for anyone to "think back" or for Zen to tell them, because Avon does it himself. > >The Federation in selecting subjects for limiters might well have divided > >'violent criminals' into two groups - the ones which were persistently so > >(eg the crimos and Doran) and those who 'acted violently in a specific set > >of circumstances' - which Gan (seemingly) was (even if his actions were > >directed against the 'police'). Again, we have only Gan's word for the reasons he was given a limiter. > >The Federation were attempting to ensure > >the latter group could be reintegrated into general society - but the > >limiters did not 'work.' Why assume that the limiters do not work? Why not assume instead that the limiters aren't doing what you think they are? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses ... (long)
by Sally Manton 11 May '01

11 May '01

This is getting unpleasant again, unfortunately I'm going to have to bail out and will *not* be addressing any reply, but in the interests of clarity: Me: <The second instance is an invalid example, IMO,> Jenny: <Is that right?> I'm sorry? As I said IMO, yes, it's right that it's IMO. <Yes, but I don't think it's ment to show stupidity, just Gan's true nature.> That is *your interpretation*. Other people do not see the evidence the same way. I think it shows that it moments of stress he acts like any other average human being. Is it accepted that other people do not have to agree with our interpretation, or is it not? <Hostage is a dog's dinner of an episode, I'll grant you that. Quite why it's such a mess, I don't know. Time maybe, or perhaps it was a last minute replacement script. Nation was going to write the last two episodes of series two but then didn't. That must have put a huge last minute strain on everyone.> What has that got to do with it? If Gan's actions 'show his true nature', Avon's show moments of stupidity. You can't have it both ways. <If Avon sent a message to Space Command Headquarters (anonymously remember), it would be logical for Servalan/her staff to send the nearest pursuit ship to Exbar, which would have gotten there in a very short period of time; Travis would have been dealt with by the time Blake got into in his shiny suit. Unfortunately Servalan herself got interested and decided to come along, which meant a long delay,> To quote you on other threads, the business about who was sent and how long they might have been delayed is not in the script. Avon was taking a huge and totally unjustified risk with Blake's life - the fact that he then gets upset about it shows he didn't think. <He didn't know Sara was armed.> You don't know that. The only thing he *does* know is that she's murdered two people, not something that a cautious man should treat lightly. The rest is *your interpretation*. (This is beginning to sound awfully familiar). <Where does it say that the gun was in another room? He could have simply fallen asleep in the bath. After all, after the events on Terminal they all must have been both physically and emotionally exhausted.> Exhaustion or not, falling asleep in the bath would have been even stupider. <Why was Norl's story "incredibly silly"?> Oh come on. Norl insisted on Vila going down alone - unarmed - with no way to call for help - and it's made clear that he made damn sure Tarrant didn't get to see or hear anything while he was there. The whole set-up *screams* set-up. <Because Gan was not acting like a raging monster and was now calm. She didn't know that he was a psycopathic killer with a hatred of women.> Neither do we, so that doesn't count. What we do know is that she knows he tried to kill two members of the crew when the limiter was malfunctioning and it hasn't been fixed. She can't know if it's going to malfunction again. <Because Servalan--who operated the teleport in Terminal--would therefore be able to tell if she was operating the wrong controls and would have ordered Shad to shoot her if she did anything dodgy.> What? Sorry, but what has Terminal got to do with it? This is the first time Servalan's been on the ship. And - to quote one of your own arguments - since she isn't shown to have learned about the controls beforehand, it didn't happen. <Anyway the two times people are teleported into space are in S1 and S2, before Dayna joined the crew-- we don't know that she knows how or even that it's possible.> No one taught the earlier people either. It's sheer common sense. <Why in MoD he left the unsealed box with an incredibly valuable neutrotope lying around where at the first bump it would fall?> <It was in a sealed padded box in the middle of a table with Gan sat in front of it. It's Gan that lets it drop. Gan again, see?> If it's sealed, why does it fall open, please? <Because she wanted insurance. And Zeeona being on Xenon Base is the best insurance you can possibly have. Notice also that Soolin dislikes Zukan (which turns out to be a much smarter action than Avon's)-- "spite" is a decent motivation.> I'm afraid that doesn't even make sense to me. The alliance is barely hanging together because of mutual distrust and suspicion, and Soolin thinks a good insurance is to incur the hatred of the figurehead/supplier of the antidote? This is a *long-term* plan, remember; or do they intend to keep Zeeona there for years and hope Zukan comes round before he finds a way to get even? <As Vila had no idea that Blake is under control at that point, and Blake is the leader, it makes perfect sense.> Yes he *does* know, they've all been talking about it non-stop since the episode started!!! <They argue with Blake. Blake tells them that Ven Glynd has a plan and a way of ousting Servalan without bloodshed, but that he won't tell them until they get back on the Liberator. He is rational and lucid (remember that they don't have any actual proof at this point that his mind is being controlled);> No, of course, the tone and all those all those 'renounce renounce' bits at the start were an illusion. Sorry, that *was* sarcasm, but they know damn well that he's having mind problems, and they know the tone that caused the problems was heard just before he rerouted them to the asteroid to pick up the mummy, so it wouldn't take three seconds to work out they're linked. Yes, they do as he says. Avon almost *always* does what Blake wants him to, even when it's stupid. That doesn't make it not stupid. <(Jenna doesn't have *many* 'where-in-the-world-have-I-put-my-brain' moments, but she does seem to persistently be several steps behind Avon and Blake (the dreaded 'what's going on, Blake?' bits) so that they have to explain things to her - Redemption is especially bad on this point).> <So? Reading that episode back, she doesn't seem to ask any more questions than Vila or Gan.> One expects better from Jenna and yes, IMO she does ask 'what's going on' more than they do here. YMMV. I'm not even going to touch your view of SLD, because we're clearly watching completely different versions of the episode. <Or that Jenna *saw* their discarded handcuffs in Bounty and said nothing???> <BECAUSE SHE WAS ONLY **PRETENDING** TO BE ON TARVIN'S SIDE. Next time watch the episode.> <Deep sigh> *I* have watched it. I know she was only pretending. *They* don't know that - and from the dialogue after she leaves, they ****still don't work it out****, even though she noticed the handcuffs rather pointedly. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Captain Vila
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

M wrote: #> >On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:20:38 -0000, Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > Vila says, "Are you going to let me in on the secret?" to which Avon > >replies"You wouldn't understand it if we did." Avon then turns his back on > >Vila. This doesn't go down to well, prompting Vila to respond, "My > >classification might be Grade 4 ignorant, but I'm not stupid. I bought that > >classification from a friend at the testing centre." Avon looks on > >impassively, and Cally in the background rolls her eyes. Vila continues, "I > >didn't want to be a Space Captain now did I? They all ended up getting > >killed didn't they?" > > > Cally responds with, "Tarrant survived." "Oh yes," says Vila, " > > > >OK, I interpret this differently - firstly he says I wouldn't want to be a > >captain, not that he could pass the test. Yes but by saying that he bought his grade classification and then saying that he didn't want to be a space captain implies that the two are linked in some way. They aren't of course, he's just talking shit. > >All he says is he bought the > >'Grade 4 ignorant', all that means is that he's higher. No. It means he's lying. See above. > >I think he doesn't > >mean that he could be a Captain, No. See above. but with the joking, he feels defensive > >and > >so complains about Tarrant. How is this bit a different interpretation to what I said? Also he never says he knew they'd get killed, > >I thought what this meant was kind of his way of saying that the Space > >Captains got killed so in hindsight who would want to be one. Then why mention it at all? In the scene it is given as Vila's justification for faking his test results. > > I think his phrasing is just a little off, possibly because he is nervous, and that hes > >saying he made the right choice never wanting to be one. Basically then, Vila is talking shit. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Avon needs Blake
by Jenny Kaye 11 May '01

11 May '01

"Jenny Kaye" wrote: > > > > > > Guy wrote: > > > > > > [By the way, I am a big Avon fan and a bit > > > >anti-Blake.] What still troubles me is why Avon needs Blake. > > > > > > Because Avon believed in him. > > > > > > Jenny > > > > > > >Or Avon believed Blake would give him what he wanted - a galaxy free of the > >Federation chasing him, so he could explore in peace. I don't think Avon would be that naive. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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