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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Terminal (was: moloch/limiters)
by Alison Page 09 May '01

09 May '01

Stephen said - >like the ending of Terminal as drama - as philosophy >and biology it's awful - but as drama it's brilliant Yep. But could we imagine a future biology which has discovered that evolution is not as random as we currently think? I'm not suggesting that is true (or that we could know it was true even if it were) but imagine that the chaotic processes of evolution nevertheless have certain favoured stable states which are much more likely than others ('strange attractors' I think in chaos modelling?). So the links could be heavily predictable as most likely outcomes. I think this sort of remorseless predictability is a bit of a feature of B7 overall, not just in evolutionary terms. No matter how the individual struggles against political and psychological trends, they will tend to re-assert themselves. The federation will tend to reform, the rebellions will tend to peter out, the various future outcomes will collapse back into certain predictable end states. Even if it isn't true, I think Servalan believes it is true. She believes the political future is inevitable, so she might as well look out for herself within that overall context. A ruling class that makes use of psychostrategists is likely to have that view I would think. Alison

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Re: [B7L] Terminal (was: moloch/limiters)
by Jenny Kaye 09 May '01

09 May '01

Stephen wrote: > > >Servalan is IMO talking absolute rubbish, and if > > Avon wasn't in a state of > > >shock from the 'Blake is dead' bit, he'd have > > probably taken some > > >pleasure in pointing this out. > > > > What do you think he would have said? > >Something to do with Chaos theory I imagine. It is >difficult enough to predict weather patterns over a >period of a few days (UK people may remember Michael >Fish reassuring the public that there wasn't going to >be a storm in 1987 just before it broke loose.)Trying >to predict them over a period of several million >years, which is the sort of timescale evolution works >in, is going to be impossible. If you can't predict >the climate you can't predict how evolution is going >to happen. So what he'd have said would be basically "Then again, maybe you're wrong?" I think that's a bit too upbeat for a story like Terminal. >More simply why would natural selection consistently >favour link like traits against intelligence and not >ripping the head off anything you meet ? Perhaps they can outbreed and outfight the more intelligent specimens :-)? >I am open to correction on this from anyone who has a >better knowledge of evolutionary biology but I don't >think that a Terminal type experiment would do more >than give you one possibility for how things would >work out. It would be cheaper and more effective to >use computer modelling I would think. Well, it was 1980 and SimCity was a few years off :-). But I'd imagine a live trial has the advantage that things could happen which the experimenters didn't predict-- a computer is only as good as its operator after all. >They are indeed crucial to Nation's ending. The >Federation is in tatters. Servalan is dead. Blake is >dead. The Liberator has been destroyed. Jenna is mia. >And in the long run it has all been for nothing. In >the end it has all been for nothing as we are all >going to evolve into links. Vanity, vanity, all is >vanity. I agree, it's a very postmodern ending. The theme of civilisation descending into barbarism seems to be a common one with Nation-- it crops up in the Dalek stories a lot-- made even more poignant here by the fact that the Federation is basically a fascist state and fascism is in itself a sort of barbarism. I find the costumes worn by Servalan's guards interesting as well. Bad, but still interesting in that Nicky Rocker seems to have picked up on the "fascists' descent into bestial savagery" bit. They are blond and wear silver space suits and remind me of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers and the Robinson family from the '60's serial Lost in Space: square jawed space pioneers, bringing to the galaxy family values, Mom's apple pie, truth, justice and mass murder. During one part of the episode two of them are beaten to death by a group of Links. Welcome to the future... >Mind you I think he's wrong. Leaving my religious >prejudices out of the argument, and conceding for the >sake of argument that if the history of the universe >can be summed up in an hour of meaningless noise >containing a few seconds of Bach, this does not make >the Bach any the less beautiful. If our species has an >allotted time frame of a few million years before we >evolve into men in bad monkey suits then let us make >the life of our species worthwhile while it lasts. Perhaps it's also that no one species is any more valuable than the other. Which isn't necessarily a bad or tragic thing. >(Who obviously read way too much Albert Camus at university). I liked "The Outsider." Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Avon and Terminal
by Sally Manton 09 May '01

09 May '01

Marian wrote: <Basically, Avon is a survivor and to bring himself into such a no-win situation is more stupid than I would have given him credit for.> Let's try and reason it out more (aka make more excuses for him) shall we? <g> Well, maybe Avon convinced himself that he had to keep the rest out of it, not only for their own sakes but for Blake's, if he *was* being genuinely used as bait in a trap. If the others followed (as they have already shown they would) and are found out (which they probably would be), it could make Blake's and his own position more precarious. Rather than a Charge to the Rescue, their presence *could* be that one fatal mistake he doesn't need. Look at it from Avon's (tired and distinctly stressed) point of view. He has to go, on the off-chance it's Blake. He has to try and ensure that the Liberator and the crew don't topple into the trap with him (though his concern didn't extend to ensuring they didn't run any danger on the way there of course :-)). *And* he has to ensure that said crew don't create any further danger for himself and/or Blake (if Blake is there and in trouble). *And* try and organise a pickup if he can do it on the precise one-hour schedule he's laid down for himself and within the time-limit he's set (to protect the Liberator etc etc). No wonder it's all rather more than he can handle with his usual <cough> impeccable sense ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Terminal
by Tavia 09 May '01

09 May '01

Alison wrote: >I think adding this radical pessimism to her character makes >her more rounded (no pun intended) than the average SF villain >of the time. Her ruthlessness isn't just an inexplicable plot device, >but reflects a complete, bleak, world view. I'm not convinced Servalan's bleak world view by Rumours was necessarily present at the start of the series. She gives me the impression of being curiously innocent and almost optimistic in S1, especially. One of the nice things about the series to me is the way in which even the villains' characters are radically developed as time passes. Servalan, like most of the other main characters, gets her uniquely personal tragedy (Children of Auron) and I see this affecting her world view. I've commented on this before, but Servalan apparently ages far more than most of the others throughout the four seasons. In SLD (S1) she could easily be 19--21; by Animals (S4) she looks more like 40. The obvious changes in dress and make-up (white to black, innocent to vamp) seem symbolic of the change in attitude. >I think she is a bit of an intellectual, though a pragmatic one rather >than a lover of ideas for their own sake. But I'd be interested to >hear other people's opinions. I'd tend to agree, but just as a back-of-the-envelope feeling (says she valiantly trying to pretend that this is FC and I don't need to back up my vague feelings....) Tavia

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Re: [B7L] scripts and other ephemera
by Sally Manton 09 May '01

09 May '01

Leia wrote: <I've always liked that one word line.> Another one-word one-liner I always liked was Tarrant's 'duck' in Terminal, especially the way he pretends to think about it first ... really quite gorgeous. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Avon and Terminal
by Marian de Haan 09 May '01

09 May '01

Andrew wrote: >Marian wrote: >>Basically, Avon is a survivor and to bring himself into such a no-win situation is more stupid than I would have given him credit for. (I blame the Ultra - something must have gone wrong with the reversal of the brain-sucking process :-) )<< >Wouldn't it be more fun to blame Tarrant for it?< I always try to be fair to Toothy. >Ah, the simple joys of TN-baiting....< There's that, of course :-) Marian

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free computer
by Deborah Day 09 May '01

09 May '01

This email was delivered to you by The Free Internet, a Business Online Group company. http://www.thefreeinternet.net --------------------------------------------------------------- I know its off topic, but I have an old computer (286) complete with printer, all fully working and with manuals, paper, ribbons etc which seems a shame to junk. Does anybody want it, or know of anywhere that could use it? It has Wordstar which can do just about everything that Word can do, and Dos 3. Its free to a good home. Debbie

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Avon needs blake...
by Nathan Hook 09 May '01

09 May '01

Marian said: And that's exactly what makes the episode so incomprehensible to me. Avon is acting on the outside chance that the message is real and Blake needs rescueing. Therefor I would expect Avon to want to get Blake out of the mess and not choose a course that will only make Avon end up in captivity too. Remember Avon too isn't entirely sure the whole thing isn't genuine. I forget the exact dialogue between himself and servalan, but it runs along the lines of him recognising that it could quite possibly be a trap, but after having Zen analyse the recordings of Blakes voice the message could be genuine and therefore worth a look. now he doesn't want to jeapordise the Liberator in the first instance, so he makes it his risk. If he advises the crew to bugger off once he's on planet, the Liberator is safe theoretically. Either way there's a gamble involved. does he really calculate properly? well given he's thinking on his feet with limited sleep, he's bound to make a mistake...or two. he obviously doesn't count on the others and the human curiosity factor. what are you doing avon? Tarrant tries to bully it out of him and gets a harder shove back and all the mystery and secrecy feeds that curiosity and the desire to "Help". What's confusing is what motivates him. The short answer can only be he needs Blake. He proves it again in the Blake episode. A figure head, a rabble rouser and a good one. Blakes charisma outweighs Avon's when it comes to pure leadership. Which is ironic in the end, because it shows a turn in Avon's character incongruent with the previous Blake - Avon relationship. He rids himself of Blake, through circumstances and finally gets what he wants. yet when the oportunity finally arrives he makes a conscious an overtly determined effort to reacquire the very person he was the least fond of. Avon needs Blake - badly. sorry to all the avon fans out there, I love the character too, but it's interesting don't you think. I like the way this series allows for "characters" to be so pivotal in it's logical/illogical continuence. Their individual selfishness and idiosyncracies amusing us, surprising us, confusing us and annoying us. Brilliant, just plain brilliant. well, with the odd episodal exception! Nothings so difficult as a beginning/ In poesy, unless perhaps the end. Byron. ------------------------------------------------------------ Free, BeOS-friendly email accounts: http://BeMail.org/ Free Peepshow - http://twinfusion.com/comic/peep/

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RE: [B7L] Re: evolution for predators? (was Terminal)
by Louise Rutter 09 May '01

09 May '01

>> Maybe. But ask any conservationist which large >> predators are not in danger of extinction by homo >> sapiens. I'm pretty sure it would be a fairly short >> list. > >Off the top of my head, sharks? And they aren't land-based, so hardly >compare to the Links. The great white and tiger sharks are certainly considered endangered and are currently protected over parts of their ranges. The African lion has to be the safest large predator, I think. I guess if nobody went to Terminal any more, the experiment abandoned, the Links would be safe enough. But the concept of them is unbearably naff, and I ahve to agree that Servalan just didn't know enough biology to realise that she was spouting rubbish. Louise

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Avon and Terminal
by Andrew Williams 09 May '01

09 May '01

Marian wrote: >Basically, Avon is a survivor and to bring himself into such a no-win >situation is more stupid than I would have given him credit for. (I blame >the Ultra - something must have gone wrong with the reversal of the >brain-sucking process :-) ) Wouldn't it be more fun to blame Tarrant for it? Ah, the simple joys of TN-baiting.... Andrew.

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