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Re: Deliverance
by Helen Krummenacker 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

> Good point, but, to bring it back to the one I was making, *Avon* didn't > smile or blush. > > Fiona I daresay Avon wouldn't blush if he was teleported out of his cabin onto the flight deeck while wearing nothing but Speedos, only to find Servalan, all the crew, and an assortment of Mutoids holding score cards. I was only answering the question *you asked*, "you don't *enjoy* embarrassment, do you, even probably?" Given the imaginary scenario I mentioned, if his scores were good, Avon might be happy about that, while at the same time offended at having his privacy intruded upon and embarrassed to be put on display. Being treated with undeserved appreciation, which is the real scenario faced by Avon in Deliverance and which I have also had in real life, one is easily torn between being enjoying it, being annoyed, and being embarrassed.

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Re: [B7L] earth mothers
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/15/01 8:35:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, stephend999(a)yahoo.co.uk writes: << > Actually, we're on that subject, can anybody think of a god who isn't either male or female? I can't, off the top of my head, except a vague recollection that the Hebrew word translated as "God" in the King James Version of Genesis I is actually plural (which still doesn't make it neuter, and my > recollection may not be > accurate...)<< Your recollection is accurate. "Elohim", the Hebrew word for god, is actually plural, which for many anthropologists and historians is evidence of the multi-diety origin of Judaism/Christianity. A lot of long-suppressed evidence is starting to surface in the Middle East that the Yawah of the ancient Jews had a female counterpart, without whom he could not function; Ashera. The later turn of the faith toward domination by the patriarchs demonized and eradicated her, reducing her presence down to nothing more than the feminine 'aspect' of God as a whole, the "Shechina." An intermittant movement or two arose through the subsequent 3 millennia to restore the presence of Ashera (sometimes through arcane Kaballah interpretation), but were always suppressed; by then, both Christianity and Judaism were solidly entrenched in their Patriarchal domination. >>You could make a very respectable case for the Christian deity ! Certainly, once you start envisaging God as having "neither body, parts nor passions" it tends to militate against God having any sex/gender. This hasn't of course stopped people referring to God as "he". I think feminist theologians would argue that this is a hangover from patriarchy rather than saying anything about God's nature.<< Unfortunately, Judeao-Christian theologians have historically used the strict characterization of God as a literal male to turn the female half of their number into second-class members of the faith, still unworthy of clerical priesthood and needing to yeild obedience to a man because he does not carry the burden of that nasty sin with the apple, back in the Garden of Eden. What amazes me is our continued compliance with these ideas, 3 THOUSAND years later. Sometimes, I don't think the dark ages actually ended. >>I would guess that most deities are given personal attributes which would include sex/ gender. As always I am open to correction from anyone who knows different. (Did Plato refer to God as "He", I can't remember off the top of my head).<< Patriarchal religion began to replace the almost universal Goddess religions when agriculture and city-states kicked in big time, about 3,000 years ago. In multi-god cultures like Greece and Rome, the 'chief' diety became an all-powerful male one. It's no coincidence that this was around about the time that it became general knowledge, for the first time, that the male had a part in the procreation process. Leah

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Re: Deliverance
by Helen Krummenacker 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

(snipping bits about Messiahs) > Now Avon (for whatever reason, and for God's sake > let's not start that one again) didn't, and he didn't stay either. Now, to > play the speculation game a little, if he had stayed either he would have --died in a week or died in less than a week. They were used to the radiation levels. He wasn't. The exposure he *did* have would have killed him if he hadn't gotten medicine for it. Staying behind was not an option on any level.

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Natasa Tucev 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

Neil wrote: >One thing that leaps out at me from the scripts, now I've had a chance to >look at them, is how short most of the lines of dialogue are. I haven't >done any statistical research on this, but I wouldn't mind betting that if >you calculated an average number of words per speech for a script and did >the same for a story, the story would come out higher. Perhaps much higher >(depending on the author, probably). Characters in fanfic say a lot more, >use longer sentences, are generally more 'wordy', or at least that's the >impression I get. I agree completely - the original world of B7 series is much more stoical, much less is spoken directly and much more is just intimated or remains hidden inside, than in fanfic. When direct speech carries so much weight of explicit emotional content, the story may become very pathetic as a result. An example: "I think you feel so guilty about what happened to your brother that you can't face it and you have to find someone else to blame. I think you settled for Avon because he's the handiest target, and because, after the way he greeted you, you could tell how much your rejection would hurt. He has nothing left. I don't know how it happened, but he needs you more than he needs life. Right now he's planning to go out and get caught--because he knows they'll kill him and because that's easier than living with what you did to him just now. I believe in your Cause, Blake. I only just realized it. But I won't fight at your side it you don't make peace with Avon. I couldn't." Can you imagine: a) Vila saying this to Blake? b) Vila saying this at all? If someone maintains that Vila is a sage behind his clownish mask, that's fine with me. If the above paragraph were his stream of consciousness, I don't think I would complain. But he mustn't say this aloud. This is out of his character, and out of the milieu of the series as a whole. IMHO. This is actually the author trying to explain to us the psychological motivation of characters in her story, and she is doing it in a very clumsy way. She also shows great disrespect for us as the readers, because she thinks that we wouldn't be able to figure out by some more subtle signs how Blake feels about Avon or how Vila feels about Blake or whatever. >Yes, this is perhaps where many writers fall down. There is, of course, the >problem that the inner voice they give a character might be true for the >writer and for some readers, whilst sounding utterly false for other >readers. Still, if you faithfully imitate the spoken voice of the characters, the inner voice cannot be completely incongruous with it. I think the best thing a writer can hope to achieve would be some convincing tension between the inner and the outer voice. Easier said than done. >What I find generally irritating is that the regular characters (especially, >but oc's often too) are often nowhere near 'tough' enough. I'm wary of >saying this because I don't want to sound like I'm advocating some kind of >macho manifesto, but they are revolutionary fanatics and/or criminals, >habitually doing dangerous things, seeing unpleasant sights, forced into >making snap decisions that might very well lead to someone else's death at >the expense of their own. And in a lot of fanfic this doesn't come across - >their 'inner voices' sound too 'soft' (another word I'm very uneasy about >using), too preoccupied with 'trivial' things (also a dangerous label), too >concerned with the fragility of their relationships with one another. This, >to me, is the hidden hand of Mary Sue, acting within the characters >themselves. If I understand this correctly, you dislike fanfic where (male) characters behave like stereotypical women: they babble, express interest in food and clothes, display their emotions overtly and gossip about each other. Still, I have also come across fanfic, written both by male and female authors, where the balance between emotions and action is well managed. I haven't read enough all together to say which style prevails. Admittedly, it's very hard to please me when it comes to fanfic. My ideal fanfic would be a mixture of adventure and angst focusing on Blake. If I keep looking hard enough, I might even discover three such stories written in the last twenty years. N.

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Jacqueline play
by Steve Rogerson 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

This was posted on the B7 discussion forum, so I'm copying it here in case anyone missed it. I'll probably go along to it myself at some point Arti-Zan in association with Bare Boards and a passion presents Aphrodite Blues a new comedy by ROBERT HAMILTON directed by CHRYS SALT designed by JOE ATKINS NEW END THEATRE 27 New End, Hampstead, London NW3 1JD Box Office: 020 7794 0022 TUESDAY MARCH 6 - SUNDAY MARCH 25 Press night Friday March 9 at 7.30pm Tuesday to Saturday at 7.30pm Saturday and Sunday matinees at 3.30pm Seats #12.50 concessions #10 Friday and Saturday evening all seats #15 Is revenge a dish best served cold, or is it better heated up, served with feta cheese and washed down with a multiple Orgasm? On an island in the Aegean, three women are desperately seeking Harry, a famous travel writer who has disappeared. Will Penny find Harry - and what will she do if she does? Will Verity find Harry - and what will she do if she does? Will Trevor find the perfect older woman? Will Caroline get the sand out of her thong? Is there such a thing as a constant erection? And what is the secret of Aphrodite? Every woman should know. No man will want any woman to know! The cast features Stephen Ellery, Suzan Gueret-Wardle, Suzanah Heath, Jacqueline Pearce (best known as evil Servalan in BBC's cult sci-fi series "Blake's 7") , John Pickard (TV's Point 4 Children) Robert Hamilton is twice winner of The Sunday Times Playwrighting Award -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention 23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Tavia Chalcraft 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

Neil wrote: >*Anything* can be dull to read, if it's written badly enough. >Conversely, almost anything can be interesting to read, if >it's written in the right way. Even a story about watching >paint dry could be made to work if it was about Avon's >thoughts as he watched it drying out. (I'm not saying it would >be easy to write, or that it would turn out a deathless classic, >just that a perfectly readable story could be made out of the >classic epitome of boredom.) 'The Mezzanine' by Nicholson Baker is worth reading for insight into what a good writer can do with unpromising material. A reasonably interesting novel about one man's lunch hour. >As to the SF, a lot depends on how you define it. I would say any fiction >set in a hypothetical future is more or less SF of a kind by default. >But that leads on to the thorny problem of 'What *is* SF?' for >which there are no easy answers. There's generally some thought that one ought to be exploring the changes in science and technology, either directly or their effects on society or individuals. I would say that I don't write science fiction (even if I write in the B7 universe), though I enjoy reading it. >If you don't know about it, don't write about it. That's >why there's never any sex in my stories:) And I only ever write bad sex... A degree of imagination appears to be called for? Or even perhaps research? None of us live in the B7 universe (thankfully), none of us actually are Blake, Avon and crew, so there's got to be some imagination somewhere in all B7 fic. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/14/01 3:45:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, N.Faulkner(a)tesco.net writes: << From: <Bizarro7(a)aol.com> > What seems to make a TV show "fannish" usually > involves the chemistry between the basic milieu, the character's visual > presence and portrayal and the writing. > I tend to go for Jenkins' theory, that fandom arises out of the tension generated by an attraction to certain elements of a series and a repulsion from others. Fannishness is generated by a desire to reconcile these opposing forces.< Um....that's exactly what was meant by my use of the metaphor 'chemistry', which involves molecules--which both attract and repulse. For example, the 'catch' for me in HIGHLANDER has not only been the relationships of attraction, but the one of repulsion between Cassandra and Methos. Further, my comments were addressing what makes a show become 'fannish' to a viewer, where yours were a bit more toward what makes a fan of the show compelled to write fanfic (in an effort to reconcile the opposing forces in a way that is not satisfactorily unresolved in the series ie: PGP epics that eventually reconcile Blake and Avon, etc.) Leah: >> Some people are wired in right-brain, > some left. One side is analytical, the other visual. Your mileage will always > vary.<< >Most people are wired for both left and right, with one side having a slight edge over the other.< Edge = Mileage. We are agreeing, Neil. Those 'slight' differences have actually proven to add up to profound effects on the life and personality of the individual, and what they can and can't do with proficiency. Neil >>

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Earth Mothers
by Dana Shilling 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

If I understand Catholic theology correctly, it would not be correct to identify the Virgin Mary as a "deity," but nevertheless she is a very significant spiritual entity who serves as intercessor, and who is worthy of reverence (although only God is worthy of worship). We also shouldn't forget the distinction between a religion's officially promulgated form and the beliefs and actions of ordinary worshippers-- devotion to the Virgin Mary is very common among both male and female Catholics, I think. In some cases this also has a nationalist aspect, e.g., the devotion to the Virgin of Guada- lupe and Our Lady of Czestochowa. The patron saint of France is St. Joan of Arc, and the unsuccessful French Revolutionary attempt to create a synthetic religion included Goddesses of Liberty and Reason. And Marianne is a kind of secular goddess too. -(Y)

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character' (and woodlice)
by Tavia Chalcraft 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

Neil again: >I freely admit that the stories I've written were the kind of >fanfic I wanted to read, and only I could write it exactly the >way I wanted. ... I suspect this is true of many fan writers, >perhaps most, maybe even all. I think there may be a skill thing here. I'd rather read (for eg) E'trix, Ika, Penny Dreadful fic, to name just three, than my own stuff. I'd rather write closer to what I'd love to read, but first I need to acquire some talent and some ideas.... Tavia PS I love woodlice, Neil.

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Re: radiation medicines (was Deliverance)
by Helen Krummenacker 15 Feb '01

15 Feb '01

> Whatever the System thought DSV-1 was supposed to be used for, > it probably went to some awfully dodgy planets. Why didn't they have > whizzo anti-radiation planet exploring outfits on board? I noticed that potential plot hole. Maybe the Altas are created by a process that subjects them to radiation levels that make them immune to most of what they might encounter? Mayb the System planets have no Van Allen belt equivalent and therefore they have developed a natural immunity to radiation? Maybe they *were* stocked up, but that space battle that left the Liberator derelect was fought with nasty weapons that made the crew decide to down lots of anti-radiation meds fast, and take the extra with 'em when they teleported off.

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