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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Deliverance
by Sally Manton 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

After Jan wrote: <Jenna is not a feeble resourceless character. She frees herself from her restraints and is very unlucky to be spotted by one of the tribesmen as she exits the tent.> Fiona came back: <But again, her attempt to escape fails, and it is Avon and Co. who rescue her in the end ...> <grin> but you will notice it took *three* of them to do it ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Marian de Haan 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

Sally wrote re Shadow: >Blake is being fabulously unreasonable and pig-headed, Vilakins is doing his kid-locked-out-of-a-candy-store bit, and Avon's wearing those boots ...< And Cally is at her best... Marian

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Re: Deliverance
by Helen Krummenacker 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

> Now hang *on!* You can't separate power from gender, a point which I recall > has been made by Neil, Una, Alison and myself among *many* others on this > list. Try this: Servalan has a submissive man at her feet. She steps on him and continues walking on. Or she talks to him only to find out how useful he will be. She tells him she will help him after she recovers her pilot. They rescue the pilot. She shoots the submissive male and goes on her way. Cally has a submissive man at her feet. She gets him to stand up, asks many questions showing a keen interest in what he thinks he is doing and why. She helps him with his request, then asks him to man the door while she rescues the pilot. Same gender-reversal in both cases. Servalan is evil because she's evil, not because she's a woman. Cally, in this scenario, does what Avon did-- because they are neither one the sort to abuse power over another person.

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Deliverance - My final word on the topic
by Stephen Date 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

Meegat: Welcome Lord Avon's Aunt: He's not the Messiah, he's just a naughty boy. (Sorry - couldn't resist it) Stephen. ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

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Re: [B7L] Heavy (was: Subtext vs Character)
by Mac4781＠aol.com 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

Sally wrote: > Tis the way he tries soooooo hard to be menacing and intimidating (the way > T1 managed seemingly as naturally as breathing) and just - just - *isn't* > (and it isn't only Hostage, goodness knows he has a nerve calling My Gnome a > powderpuff in Gambit). Sorry, dear, but Travis 2 just *isn't* Blake's equal > and it shows, painfully. I don't know about that. Travis got Blake pretty much where he wanted him in "Hostage." Travis also got to Star One first. And Travis' machinations forced Blake to abandon his plans for Star One. With post-Trial T2 having far fewer resources than Blake he had to be a plucky sort of scrambler to be as successful as he was, and to be one step ahead of Blake as often as he was. He was very much Blake's equal, which is what kept the contest interesting. And it's what kept Blake from looking like a loser. If his primary enemy had been less bright and less effectual, Blake would have had to have been a lot more successful or we would have been saying, "What's the matter with this guy that he can't accomplish more?" When he's up against T2, we know why Blake isn't accomplishing more. Not that T2 was perfect. In HOSTAGE he should have killed Blake as soon as he had Avon and Vila. He no longer needed Blake to get him Liberator. The other time he failed to finish Blake was in STAR ONE. But it's still a glorious Travis moment. He dominates the screen. I love the way Brian delivers the lines: "His name is Blake. Hm. His name was Blake." The edge of insanity he incorporates into those lines is brilliant. I have no problem with the switch from Stephen to Brian. T1 has the might of Space Command behind him; he's coolly confident that he'll succeed. T2 has been faced with numerous failures. He's no longer as confident. He's growing stressed and ragged. Then the Federation itself betrays him. I don't know how Stephen would have played second season Travis, but Brian's interpretation is spot on perfect for me. Carol Mc

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Re: Re [B7L] Deliverance - keg marxist take (OT)
by Sally Manton 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

Una wrote (or was it Iain? Sorry, getting muddled): But problem 2 is solved by problem 1. Get some of the old geezers and ask them what it used to be like. Of course, you'll have to be quick: they're dropping like flies.> Dunno why, but this reminds me of Anna Russell's words re collecting folk songs (I can't find the CD, so this is a mis-remembered version') "You go to a village and find the oldest inhabitant, and ask him to sing you the songs his mother taught him. "Well you'll probably find that he's deaf, and if he isn't deaf he can't sing, and if he can sing he doesn't want to, and by the time you've persuaded him and he does sing, you won't understand a word of what he's singing about. "This is how folk songs have been passed down from generation to generation." _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] liking 'character'
by Sally Manton 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

Neil wrote: <Sally, you're not a convert by any chance, are you?> Err, sorry. Started rewatching Shadow today. Now that one could be chock-full of ideas and themes and significance - BUT Blake is being fabulously unreasonable and pig-headed, Vilakins is doing his kid-locked-out-of-a-candy-store bit, and Avon's wearing those boots ... How can you compete? ;-) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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to junkie-fy or not to junkie-fy, that was probably the question ...
by Sally Manton 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

... Or maybe not. WARNING - this is appallingly about *me*, so feel free to switch off now. But I did get to think some more about what it is that *makes* me more interested in the characters, as well as the odd things I seem to burble about on the lists (apart from My Darlings). Things like "how did they manage to miss the Treasure room for four months?" "How do Zen's food processors work?" (you will notice I don't give a damn about the guns or bracelets, but the food and who does the sewing? Oh yes ...) And anyone who's read my little Christmas story in Star Four may have noticed my fascination for the minutinae of these people putting together the bits and pieces of a ancient festival ... I am fascinated by just that story of detail. As I've mentioned, I'm a history student, and will read just about anything in that line (I am still trying to explain the $140 book on Jacobean funerals to my family :-)) whether it be on labour relations in Interwar Europe, the rise of fascism, the history of women's rights, the Lives of the Queens of England ... you name it. But none of those can hold the sheer enthralled fascination that an old box of 1940s knitting patterns, cut out from magazines, that I spent a 6 hour train journey absorbing one time (and I don't knit). I read old cookery books *for fun*. I wouldn't know one end of a modern tractor from another, but I'll go to a field day to study the decrepit 1920s hand tools. Does this all make sense? I like delving right into other people's everyday lives, the things they do and own and take for granted, and I do tend to carry this over into my character junkie-ism. There's far more to it than just this (as anyone who sat through my part in the Star One discussions knows) but I really am more interested in whether Avon might have made the computers deliver decent coffee - and if the wardrobe room carried fresh undies and what on earth they did if it *didn't* - and what Our Heroes talked about over the dinner room table - than the underlying philosophy of the people who made the series, or the significance in modern terms of their pre-suppositions built into the series. It;s not that the latter *isn't* interesting, it's just that the former is *fascinating* (even if we don't have many clues to go on mutter grumble). So *of course* I'm a character person. How can I help it? And yet I don't like soap operas. Go figure. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Subtext vs Character
by Sally Manton 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

Kathryn wrote: <But Travis has no excuse... unless you blame the retraining therapists for turning a cold, sharp, snooty Alpha into a thuggy Beta who worked his way up the ranks. They are two completely different people.> 'Fraid I agree ... there was *no* attempt as far as I can see to match Travis II to the the character already established, and it's a shame. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Rickman
by Helen Krummenacker 08 Feb '01

08 Feb '01

> Believe me, you don't have to be an Avon fan to succumb to Alan Rickman. > He's mesmeric. BTW whatever happened to his film about Messmer? > Cheers > Chris Blenkarn If anyone can answer this, please do.

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