Blakes7

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5511 discussions

12 hour warning...
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

The latest round of B7 zines and items at the Ashton Press eBay auction is about to roll off. Grab a last peek and a possible bargain at: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/ashton7/ Good luck!

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Re: What makes a good story?
by Betty Ragan 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Annie wrote: > This is one reason I > attempted to point out that "h/c" is indeed a misnomer and can encompass a > huge range of stories. I absolutely agree with this. In fact, in a way, it feels a little odd to me to be discussing "h/c" at all (let alone defending it!), because I really don't tend to mentally categorize stories that way. In fact, more than once, I've looked at an indexed description of a story (e.g. on Judith's Library, or on some of the zine reviews on her website), seen it labelled "h/c, and done a bit of a mental doubletake. "H/c? It is? Oh, well, yeah, I suppose it is." Unless a particular story is a *really* obvious h/c cliche, the phrase "hurt/comfort" is unlikely to actually cross my mind while I'm reading. I was thinking maybe that was just me... > What's important is the "angst" level. Yes, that *is* a categorization that I actually use. Of course, "angst" basically implies *emotional* distress, as opposed to physical, whereas the "hurt" part of "hurt/comfort" could be either. But, then, I'm not interested in reading about physical hurt for its own sake. It's the emotional aspects that are interesting to me. > Without some degree of > emotional involvement with characters, I'm not interested in a tv show, a > movie or a book. I *can* be, if there's a really good plot, or really clever humor, or really nifty ideas. But it's much harder to suck me into something without good characters, and stories (in whatever medium) without interesting, involving characterization tend to be pretty forgettable for me. But there I am, plugging my own electrodes in again. :) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Re: [B7L] Re: in calm discussion (was Deliverance)
by Ellynne G. 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:50:52 +0000 (GMT) =?iso-8859-1?q?Fiona=20Moore?= > Oh, guys, this HURTS. This really, bloody hurts. You > may feel like a lab rat, but to be honest, I feel like > someone who has spoken up in favour of animal > experimentation and come home to find my car burnt > down and my house smashed up by animal rights > activists If it makes you feel better, I don't feel like a lab rat (not about this. Now, if we talk about bank and credit card companies selling customer information to who knows what companies, or that clothes store where, honestly, the clerks don't know how to operate the machinery without loading in private phone numbers, that's another story. However, that's people who 1) Don't ask permission, and 2) Don't tell me who or what they're giving the information to but I'm pretty sure it's not someone with my best interests at heart). The interesting thing about the h/c thread is that I feel like I keep jumping back and forth on it. Sometimes, I'm sure it's a genre I like. Other times, I'd say not. Part of it, certainly, is that I'm reading descriptions that don't seem to quite match with what I was thinking of. I'm still trying to decide if this is because I'm reading an analysis by someone who may not like it or whether I'm the one who's confused. Cause enough to get defensive. However, getting back to the h/c discussion, I'm also wondering if this doesn't tie into something I've noticed about romance novels. I'm not into romance novels as such. Every once in a while, I look through one or even deliberately try to read one (note, we are just ending the SF&F publishing dry spell between December and March, and not a moment too soon). However, I dislike different types for different reasons. Regencies (and other 'tame' romances): too sweet and too predicatable. By predicatable, I mean that the couple has met and we know everything we need to about them within the first ten pages. The next two hundred pages are about them trying not to catch on to the inevitable. By too sweet, the myopia that seems to block out everything but the relationship as the story goes along is a bit much for me. Other: Got talked into reading what I was told was one of The Greats (the little blurp about copies sold would seem to support that). The hero's idea of a great pick up line would be the sort of thing to cause me to pull out the mace, call the police, get a restraining order, and check with a lawyer about the chances of getting the guy committed to a place for the violently insane. However, I'm an absolute sucker for stories _with_ a romance in them. When it isn't presented as the sole purpose of the book and when the characters are allowed to notice the other things going on in the world around them (even to the grand extent of frequently acting just as they would even if the significant other weren't there or weren't significant), I'm into it. I love it, I drool, I buy multiple copies and give them to friends, I even spend significant time whining if a perceived romance doesn't pan out (hence, my undying distress over Cally and Avon). It's complete, unrestrained, schmaltz city (a space station I can just imagine Vila doing anything to _avoid_ visiting, ditto Avon and Blake [but, as Jenna's the pilot, their votes may not count]). The point being, if someone described romance and I had no preconceived idea of the genre, I might say, "Oh, yes, love it." Which doesn't mean I don't like h/c. I'm just beginning to suspect there's a bunch of h/c I don't like. For example, before hearing some of the examples, I might have described one scene in Kriegspielen as mild h/c before this discussion (sorry, Neil). To very much oversimplify, Cally gets into a threatening situation and Avon shows up in the nick of time. Part of it's just Avon being Avon but, I thought (see what different readers do to a scene?) part of it was Avon being somewhat more aware of Cally and more interested in her well being than he might be of certain other people. OTOH, I have read a couple stories with h/c themes where I was thinking, "Oh, no, I don't _know_ this character." So, although I haven't read it, assuming Avon was blinded in a way that didn't sound to much like a plot device, I could see him realizing he would need to work with the dog that came along. Anyone who works with a seeing eye dog knows you'd better have a good relationship with it - and dogs don't understand the cold shoulder as token of emotionally distant friendship routine. He'd _have_ to show some affection and it would _have_ to be sincere. Besides, dogs don't talk or spill secrets. I could see this. But if he got all teary (and it wasn't _very_ well handled), no, that's not Avon. Whatever lack of chemistry there may have been, the whole Anna thing strongly suggests Avon is better at admitting some concern for someone he's lost or is in danger of losing. So, to some extent, I would have said RoD had some h/c themes, too. And I started work on a story where Avon is the sole survivor of GP, living in self-imposed exile on a very unpleasant planet where even his worst enemies wouldn't look for him, it's that bad. He's in better condition than a lot of the other people there. Then, he comes across another one of the refugee types there, a borderline catatonic survivor of the worst the Federation (or other parties) can dish out, Cally. In character? I thought so. H/c? Probably. But there was another side to it. Skipping any feelings he may have had for Cally, Avon's a sort of living dead man at the beginning of this story. He's failed. He got everyone who relied on him, who _trusted_ him, killed. Everything he based his self-image was also destroyed - and there's no way to make it right. Till one of the crew shows up alive. But no schmaltz - or none of what I call schmaltz. As for the s/m element, I don't know. I certainly don't see myself as liking it. Maybe (getting back to romance novels) this is like those gothics of the past century where sex could only be brought up if it was made completely clear the heroine was threatened by it. Skipping the negative effect many people feel this genre had on society, it should be clear this is a _sub_genre of romance (still going on today). To judge all romances by them (whether you like them or not) would be inaccurate. Someone else tell me if this means I like h/c or not. Or am I just getting really defensive having realized some people hold it in low esteem? Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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What makes a good story?
by Ashton7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/26/01 6:07:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, tavia(a)btinternet.com writes: << It seems to me that if one can accurately pigeonhole a piece of fiction into something relatively tightly defined, such as h/c, then the story must be unoriginal. Or, to put it another way, if I like a story, then I tend to like it for what is different from other stories that I've read, not what is similar (or identical). >> You're absolutely right, Tavia. I couldn't agree more. This is one reason I attempted to point out that "h/c" is indeed a misnomer and can encompass a huge range of stories. What's important is the "angst" level. The emotional hook that the reader feels to keep reading to find out what ultimately happens to the characters you've become emotionally invested in. This was also why I, early on, pointed out that Orson Scott Card, a multiple Hugo winner, says that in order to write a good story you must find the character who "hurts the most" and then HURT HIM SOME MORE. Without some degree of emotional involvement with characters, I'm not interested in a tv show, a movie or a book. Annie

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Re: [B7L] Hurt/Comfort and all that
by Ashton7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Please folks! There is no need to CC me (and others) when you reply to the list. I'm getting almost every response to one of my messages twice or three times. Thanks. Annie

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Re: [B7L] Hurt/Comfort and all that
by Ashton7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/26/01 7:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, littles(a)lycos.co.uk writes: << If you accuse me-- who doesn't in the slightest _care_ what direction fandom goes in, so long as it's not hurting anyone-- of trying to control fandom, you are in a sense likening me to Ms Gies. Is it so surprising that I resent the implication? >> No, I do not blame you for resenting the implication. Thank you for finally explaining what you really meant. The invocation of Diane Gies, out of the blue with no further explanation, made no sense within the context of the conversation. Annie

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Re: [B7L] Re: in calm discussion (was Deliverance)
by Mac4781＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

Fiona wrote: > And for people who go on about sticking up for > underdogs as much as that, that's pretty low. I think that's my cue to cut out of this discussion. Carol Mc

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To apologise or not to apologise
by M 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

After giving up and deleting about 800 messages, I left about a week and am now up to the 23rd- thereby sorry if my answers are a little dated (broken modem, late shifts and all that). Anyway after reading a post by Marian de Hann I think about a fanfic story that gets Avon off the hook fot killing Blake, a thought occured to me. When we see Blake and when it is written about, Blake is usually some-how still alive. However why is this? At first it seems obvious Blake is still alive, the hero, the 'Captain Kirk', however I think the answer is more to do with Avon. We need to some-how give him absolution - this is proven by the fact that if Blake is killed, Avon must some-how be insane, not just killed him outright. Do we need Avon to not have committed this crime so much, we try to absolve him? Part of Avon is that he is ruthless, I myself am an Avon fan and have been guilty of it, however I think I am starting to see where the reputation for Avon fans always trying to excuse him comes from. He cannot be allowed to commit a henious crime or he must some-how be noble? What do other people think??? M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Frame capture votes
by Lisa Williams 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

For anyone who's interested and hasn't voted yet, I'll be accepting votes for the next set of frame captures through the end of February (that's Wednesday.) Remember, you can vote for up to four episodes. See my previous message for the list of those already done. At the moment, there are two clear front-runners and a four-way tie for the others. Looks like an interesting selection shaping up. - Lisa -- Lisa Williams: lcw(a)dallas.net or lwilliams(a)raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://framecaplib.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroicafans.org/

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Re: [B7L] Hurt/Comfort and all that
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 27 Feb '01

27 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/25/01 6:12:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, littles(a)lycos.co.uk writes: << H/c didn't originate from B7. It appears, and correct me if I'm wrong, to have originated in Star Trek fandom, years before B7 was written. So regardless of whether British people wrote B7 H/C, its origins were transatlantic.<< The discussion topic was H/C in B7 fandom. Since the first place B7 was shown was the U.K., and the first zines that came out were indesputably British, and many of them were H/C, by no stretch of the imagination can American B7 fans be blamed for H/C in B7. There's drama in B7 too. Drama existed on American TV before B7 was made. Does this mean that Americans are responsible for all drama in B7? Of course not. That's faulty logic. Long before American B7 zines took hold, I remember seeing several issues of a popular UK zine named "Wallow." It existed for nothing but H/C. It was British. Leah

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