Blakes7

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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Hurt/Comfort and all that
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 26 Feb '01

26 Feb '01

British/American thing... it > occurs to me that some of my > favorite 'h/c' stories were written by Brits > and were written early on in > Blakes 7 fandom. .... These were the first 'angsty' stories > in the fandom... and they were > all written by Brits. In fact, very few > AMericans in those days had even > heard of B7. So, I have to ask -- what has > changed in England that would make > the fans now claim that high emotion and angst > and h/c are somehow 'out of > character' and 'Americanization' of Blakes 7? > We learned to do it from YOU > guys, if you go by the early *British* Blakes > 7 stories. H/c didn't originate from B7. It appears, and correct me if I'm wrong, to have originated in Star Trek fandom, years before B7 was written. So regardless of whether British people wrote B7 H/C, its origins were transatlantic. Write > whatever you please. And I think I'll do the > same, regardless of whether it > suits you or not. Whether it suits me or not is, of course, irrelevant. > > <<< So long as we're fans of the same series. > >>> > So, am I misunderstanding you or are you > telling me that unless I see > everything the way that *you* do, we aren't > 'fans of the same series'? That's > the way that sentence reads to me. Please > correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, you are misunderstanding me. This is the third--and last--time I'm stating this now: I'm just giving an opinion on a newsletter. Do what you like. > << Never said I wanted to change your mind. If > you want to try to change mine, > feel free, but what you said goes double. I > think you're confusing me with > Diane Gies. >> > I'm afraid you have also confused me with > this. I didn't mention Diane Gies > in any way, shape or form and I have no idea > what she has to do with this > conversation. Is she on this list and did I > miss her posts? > Annie I suggest you read my exchange of e-mails with Carol. To sum up: she is the president of a B7 fan-club called Horizon, and is well-known for having said in a memo which reached a wider audience than intended that she hated slash and intended to start a crusade against it-- for instance by not advertising conventions (such as Redemption, incidentally) at which slash is known to be sold. I'm told she *is* on the list but she doesn't post, or at least not under her own name. I may not like slash, but I wouldn't back any policy which prevents people from doing what they like, as long as it isn't hurting anyone else. Shane 'I am not insane' --Blake

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Threadliness (more like Lystian livestock)
by J MacQueen 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

>From: Stephen Date <stephend999(a)yahoo.co.uk> >Now take me to Cuba or the penguin gets it ! Leave the penguin alone. Take the giant, stuffed toy puffin in the children's section of my local Borders. It may mind rather less. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Hurt/Comfort and all that
by Ashton7＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/23/01 3:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, littles(a)lycos.co.uk writes: << Nope, the English are guilty as well. But hang on, wasn't it you who came on the lyst a few days ago and said that British fans tend not to like H/C and the Americans do, cause for the Americans it's "normal"? Why the change of story?>>> Perhaps I expressed myself badly and wasn't clear enough. I never said that the Americans were the only ones writing h/c. I simply expressed the thought that it seemed to me that when protests happen, it is mainly British fans who don't seem to like the h/c genre and, in some cases, even want to exaggerate the situation and call h/c "sadistic." In American zines and among American fans, I have rarely encountered this attitude. Perhaps it is because by sheer weight of numbers there are more American fanzines for different fandoms all around. H/C is a misnomer for the genre, in my opinion, anyway. Because it has been my experience that the stories labelled h/c and the ones that seem to grip the greatest number of fans the most, are those that have what I call a high "angst factor." It is the "angst," whether it be caused by emotions or physical danger or *whatever* that makes this kind of story gripping. But, back to the British/American thing... it occurs to me that some of my favorite "h/c" stories were written by Brits and were written early on in Blakes 7 fandom. Stories like "Haunting of Haderon," "The Machiavellia Factor," "Mindfire," "Between Black and White," and many, many other early B7 stories. These were the first "angsty" stories in the fandom... and they were all written by Brits. In fact, very few AMericans in those days had even heard of B7. So, I have to ask -- what has changed in England that would make the fans now claim that high emotion and angst and h/c are somehow "out of character" and "Americanization" of Blakes 7? We learned to do it from YOU guys, if you go by the early *British* Blakes 7 stories. <<< Not saying it at all. Just wanting to propose a deal-- you don't have Avon making gushy speeches about his feelings, and I won't have Spock organise a union on the Enterprise and stage a sit-down in the transporter room. Remember what happened to Doctor Who: 26 years with the Beeb, 90 minutes in America. Half-human, indeed.>>> Well, no thanks. I think I'll pass. For one thing, I don't give a flying flip what you want to write about Spock or anyone else. Why should I? Write whatever you please. And I think I'll do the same, regardless of whether it suits you or not. <<< So long as we're fans of the same series.>>> So, am I misunderstanding you or are you telling me that unless I see everything the way that *you* do, we aren't "fans of the same series"? That's the way that sentence reads to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. << Never said I wanted to change your mind. If you want to try to change mine, feel free, but what you said goes double. I think you're confusing me with Diane Gies. >> I'm afraid you have also confused me with this. I didn't mention Diane Gies in any way, shape or form and I have no idea what she has to do with this conversation. Is she on this list and did I miss her posts? Annie

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Re: [B7L] Re:Deliverance/H/C
by Mac4781＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Ellynne wrote: > It's just that I like various aspects of stories where one > character is finally convinced to let down at least some of the infamous, > emotional guard. > > As such, I see the stories as being about the characters either admitting > feelings (sorry about the f word), especially trust and concern, they may > have for another character or characters. I think that is the focus of many h/c stories, and something I enjoy, especially when done in moderation. Some writers can convey a lot without the characters admitting to much verbally. But while trying to come up with the formula that Dana is seeking, I realized that h/c encompasses such a broad canvas that it isn't something I can fit into a single, simple equation. I came up with stories that I'd classify as h/c that have very little hurt and even less comfort. Often those stories could have been told without the h/c elements. But the stories would have been poorer for the absence. H/c added a complexity to the dynamics and the plot, just as Blake's getting injured added a complexity to STAR ONE. STAR ONE could have been told without that element, but it wouldn't have been as satisfying (for me, at least). Carol Mc

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Re: [B7L] Double Standards
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/24/01 8:38:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Caveatemptor1(a)aol.com writes: << I very much hope this is not the reason we haven't heard from Penny lately. It would be a shame if hurt feelings were the cause of anyone leaving the list. >> All I'm going to say is that I'm well acquainted with another list, in another fandom, where a few individuals dominate most discussions and frequently dictate the tone, content and outcome of almost every thread. The moderator is a friend of these individuals, and when the moderator *does* bother to step in and enforce a list ruling, it's never against the chosen few, no matter how outrageously obvious the double standard in their behavior. The list of which I speak used to be huge. In fact, it became known as the "Big" list in this fandom. As a result of slow, ruthless onscreen flame wars on the part of the small group insisting on its way, the list has become so small that it isn't uncommon for a day or two to go by with no posting at all. Meanwhile, debates and discussions of all kind in this fandom go on in lists and Forums elsewhere on the net. The point is, everybody sees things differently. If you're on a public mailing list, there are going to be many people who don't agree with your viewpoint. If you insist on dominating, sooner or later you'll dominate--but don't be surprised when you look around one day and discover that the need to be 'right' all the time and win every discussion has meant that you now dominate a small clique, and nothing more. Leah

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Re: Re: [B7L] The Gospel
by Ellynne G. 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:44:21 -0000 "Fiona Moore" <nydersdyner(a)yahoo.co.uk> writes: > > I see a decided sexual, and otherwise, attraction to Avon on > Servalan's > part. For Avon's part, I see something a bit more ambiguous-- he > seems aware > of her attraction, and not above using it if need be, but he also > seems to > realize that she is incredibly dangerous-- see Aftermath. Avon is 1) Attracted to her (both physically and to some elements of her personality) 2) Also repulsed by some elements of her personality (some of them the same ones that attract him). 3) More accurately, there's this mingled loathing and respect 4) Flattered that she's attracted to him 5) Competitive - who's going to outsmart who (and who will be left standing when the dust clears). Ellynne > > > > > -Blake is a noble idealist whose singlemindedness > > > frequently blinds him to > > > > other people's needs, making him cold and > > > insensitive > > > > > > Hmm. I think people's views of Blake differ a > > > *lot*. Heck, mine > > > fluctuate all over the place, especially when I'm > > > reading/writing > > > fanfic. > > Again, fair enough, but this the view I've seen expressed most > often. > > > > > -H/C fiction is a great way of exploring the more > > > intimate side of a > > > > character, and neither it nor slash particularly > > > offend anyone > > > > > > I think all of us are very much aware that some > > > people are offended by > > > slash. Me, I *wasn't* aware that some people were > > > offended by h/c. My > > > personal opinion is that both h/c and slash are > > > *valid* ways of > > > exploring the characters > > This is a genuine and serious question, I am *not* taking the mick-- > how is > it valid to the character to read in a relationship which most > people seem > to agree isn't there-- including the people who write those stories? > I mean, > I personally can see it as a fun thing to do for a bit of fantasy, > but I > don't see the character-exploration bit. > > > > Hmm. I like "The Daemons," too... > > So do I :). > > > > > Similarly, I've heard from other people that when > > > > a line in "Mark of Kane" suggested (didn't state, > > > just *suggested,* since > > > > there's no reason to assume Kane was telling the > > > truth) that Gan might have > > > > had a dark and evil side, a lot of people reacted > > > with shock, dismay and > > > > denials in the letters-of-comment in Horizon > > > instead of discussing the > > > > evidence pro and con. > > > > > > Hmm. Personally, I found that line *really* > > > disturbing, and all the > > > more so because it's so very, very *possible*. > > Me too <shudder>. > > Fiona > > The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane > Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Order of Precedence (was: One Two...)
by Mac4781＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Fiona (quoting me) wrote: > > Since I am a Godmother, however, I outrank you. :) > > Curses, foiled! How can I possibly hope to outrank > anything parenting-related? :) Oh my, I have been quiet on the lyst, haven't I? I'm going to lose my reputation if I'm not careful. I'm not just a parenting-related "Godmother," Fiona, I'm the Godmother of the dreaded Tarrant Nostra. We make fen offers they can't refuse. ;) Carol Mc

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Re:Deliverance
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Tavia wrote: > Fiona wrote: > >Neil has made several rational, intelligent posts lately > >on the subject of why he considers H/C to resemble S/M. > >Very few people have actually posted in to say "OK, Neil, > >I see your point," or "OK, Neil, but you're overlooking..." > >Either they haven't responded, or they've responded with > >categorical denials of the thesis of the debate which, as my > >old philosophy tutor used to say, is a non-starter. > > I would have responded to these at length, however at present it appears to > be tricky to discuss S&M and h/c without getting people's knickers in a > twist. And we wouldn't want to do that. Reading back the Deliverance debate in the archive, it seems to be impossible to discuss _anything_ without some people taking offence. Shane "What's wrong, is staying alive too complicated for you?" --Avon

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Gospel
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

<< Hi Fiona << I also found it kind of insulting when, after constructing a carefully thought-out argument with examples from the episode (and I'd watched it specially for that purpose), some people came on to say "Oh, that's just your *opinion,*" which made me wonder why I'd bothered to find all those supporting examples. >> Yes, some responses were just "that's just your opinion." But I also read responses which explained WHY they didn't see the examples the way you do. It sounds like what's bothering you is that you didn't change anyone's opinion. I'm not sure what you're expecting. FWIW, I *did* understand your arguement from your point of view. It's just not *my* point of view...so I don't agree. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong. I see "Deliverance" as a defining episode for Avon. An episode that brought one more dimension to his character. This is over-simplifying, but I see a "kinder, gentler" Avon here. Which is way out of character for what we've seen up to this point. Just as "Aftermath" showed us that Avon does have some social manners and that he can be a gracious guest, "Deliverance" implies he does actually have some good instincts. He just doesn't pay attention to them very often. :) But in this case, I felt he was genuinely touched by Meegat's pathetic, selfless devotion to the prophecy and by her genuine innosence. From what we've seen of Avon up to this point his response to her should have been, "I am not your Lord and I see no reason why we should involve ourselves in your problems." But, as we saw, that wasn't his reaction. He felt a kind of "sympathy" for Meegat and helped her. I won't break down and analyze every line of dialogue from Avon to Meegat because (for me) it all blends to the same conclusion. I'm not saying Avon suddenly became a nice guy after this ep. Lord knows that didn't happen. But it did happen in this ep (towards Meegat, anyway) and I saw nothing sexist about it. But I try not to look at B7 from a 20th century (or 21st century) western civilization point of view. From my interpretation of the 52 eps, I have created my view of the B7 universe and I watch the show from that perspective. << Fiona wrote: << We got disagreed with and debated, true, but sometimes the disagreeing got more than a little heated. >> In response to this, I'm going to repost a comment I made earlier. It should be pointed out that the Deliverance thread was a lively, interesting, and congenial debate (in fact, one of the best we've had in some time). It wasn't til posts became insulting (beginning with the "Wolf at your door" message) that there began to be a certain amount of resentment at the insistence that if we couldn't see sexism in "Deliverance" we must be stupid or uninformed. Also, seeing a list member write that another list member's posts make them sick is extremely disheartening. Courtney Hoping I didn't offend anyone It is not my intention

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Re: [B7L] Books and Movies
by Sally Manton 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Marian wrote: <It looks vaguely like a microfilm reader, rather uncomfortable to hold and not the sort of thing you can read in bed, but I assume it was meant as the bookform of the future.> Called a book-reader, as you said: possibly a contraption that reads books at a distance? The 'books' are electronic (or tarrial-cell) records held in libraries, and the book-reader can access them in a similar if simpler way to Orac reading other computers? What that would mean is you'd only need one book-reader to choose any 'book' in the nearest planet's libraries, and read it from a distance. I agree, it wouldn't be much good for reading in bed or the bath ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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