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5511 discussions

Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Sally-speak (was: Was it something I said :-)
by Tavia Chalcraft 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

Wendy opined: >But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months >and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, >but if I see a slashzine I'm not forced to buy it. But every >time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list >about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep >that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs. (1) Hurt/comfort is not S&M. Liking hurt/comfort does not necessarily correlate (either way) with liking S&M. (2) Hurt/comfort is often gen, and certainly needn't be slash. (3) Calle is the ListMaster; I assume it's up to him to decide what stays and goes in the Lyst rules. I got pretty tired of the Deliverance thread after a while. I stopped reading it. It stopped bothering me. Tavia [who has not noticed anything relating to S&M on this list in the past few months (and, believe me, I'd notice)]

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Re: disagreements
by Helen Krummenacker 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

Betty said: > By contrast, there are those, on this list and elsewhere, with whom I > violently disagree, but whose posts are so well-thought-out and > reasonable that they cause me to seriously re-think my own position. The Tarrant Nostra, for instance, gave such a well grounded defense of Tarrant that I no longer think of him as a git. Took a *lot* of discussion to convince me, but never once was I called an idiot; if I had been, I imagine my reaction would be, "Oh , well of course people like *that* would like a git."

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Re: Sally-speak
by Betty Ragan 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

> I've been assuming for two years that people took my 'Fearless Leader', 'My > Darling', etc, the burbles sending up the sillier aspects of the show and > splattering capitals and generally having a bit of fun with the characters > and the show as just that - fun, and had the sensitivity to discriminate > between that and my serious comments. I thought some people enjoyed the > humour in it, that most of you got a laugh out of it sometimes; That's certainly the way I feel about it, Sally, and I suspect that's true for most of us (although I certainly can't speak for anyone else). Don't let one insensitive poster shut you up. -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Re: [B7L] Sally-speak (was: Was it something I said :-)
by Ashton7＠aol.com 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/19/01 7:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, penberriss(a)yahoo.com writes: << But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs. >> I thought "that sort of thing" was okay here on lysator. I know it *used* to be okay, but I have been gone from actively participating in the list for a few years. Is it now a rule of the list that slash and adult topics aren't allowed here? Just checking! Annie

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Re: fandom
by Helen Krummenacker 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

> How true! Only you forgot someone.. Buffy is only worth watching for Spike. > My dream would be that they end that show by letting him finally kill her... > she grows more awful by the season. > > Isobel I like Spike, especially as a reluctant hero, but I've mentioned that before on list only to be told he hasn't really changed, it's just the V-chip. I didn't mention him this time because I am content to think silently how right I am. I'd be disappointed if he kills Buffy, not because of my regard for her, but because it would destroy my theory that Darla's bloodline has been growing more human with each generation, that the 4 Vampires of the Apocalypse will all march together one last time *against* the demons, and finally because ot would really make all the character development they've done with him a waste. Noteworthy-- Spike has a strong fan following. When his past was revealled, it turns out he was (as I suspected) a bit nerdy. He acts Mr Tough Guy, but he's really, as he put it once "Love's Bitch"-- romance is the driving force behind him both for evil and good. He's the Fanfic Avon of Buffydom. Suffers beautifully, wears leather, and gets the cutting lines. He *is* a case of the writers giving the fans what they want, at least up to a point.

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Re: fandom
by Helen Krummenacker 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

> << Reason 5 mundanes don't get into fandom-- when you describe anything we > do, it tends to sound extremely pathetic. It's knowing the fans that > makes it all worth while. >> > > About as pathetic as grown men and women wandering around hitting a tiny ball > with a stick (golf) or chasing a slightly bigger ball around a concrete > "court" (tennis) or rolling a great big heavy ball down a wooden corridor > (bowling) or chasing a little ball up and down a field (football). Just about > *any* hobby can sound pathetic to those who aren't interested in it. Some > people like to catalog insects (B7 reference! <g>) and others like to catalog > things in their favorite tv show. Where's the difference? > > Annie I don't believe there is one, except fandom can be done on the cheap, and I don't believe golf can. I think watching sports is silly (there's no plot! no characterization!) and playing them, good simply for the exercise. When *I* hear about Neil cataloguing birds in the background, I think "Wow, what an exceptional way of combining two hobbies, and what a lovely shortcut for anyone who needs that reference material." But I can also step into the shoes of someone who's not that interested and see how they would think, "Wow, what an incredible waste of time!" I know I shouldn't spend a much time as I have been lately with the list-- I have artwork deadlines to meet. (3 competitive shows; 2 solo shows, and a Con by May!) But sitting here is keeping me put while I'm sick, so it has its practical advantages. :)

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Re: Sally's Posts
by Betty Ragan 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

Wendy wrote: > There's a lot of people who have delighted *me* long enough, but I'm > not going to suggest that *they* should be excluded from the list or > ignored.... No, you seem, instead, to be hoping that if you're nasty enough to them they'll either be overwhelmed by your force of personality and miraculously start agreeing with you, or be cowed enough to just shut up and go away. (I tried to bite my tongue. I did. I hate flamewars, and I'm going to hate myself for hitting "send," but, dammit... I happen to like and respect the people you're aiming your vitriol at, and I don't *want* them to be cowed into shutting up and going away!) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Re: Sally-speak
by Penberriss Wendy S. 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

>Responding to Wendy, Neil wrote: > >> > I prefer to think of myself not as a shit-stirrer but >> > as a crap-defuser. >> >> Very noble, very idealistic, but above all very futile. You're not going to >> change anyone's perceptions of anything by forcing your own on them. Rather >> you're going to get them digging their heels in. > >Indeed. There is nothing remotely as effective at >getting me to >ignore your posts, dismiss your opinions, and >reinforce my commitment >to my own position as taking that kind of >insulting "anybody who agree >with me is not only wrong but disgusting and stupid >and evil" tone. As I've just said to Neil, I didn't say that. You can post what you like. I'm posting what I like. I don't necessarily want you to agree with me, I just want people to THINK about what gets said. And if I have to offend a few people to get them to think about why they consider their opinions to be the right ones, then offend them I shall. >After all, if >you don't respect my opinions, why should I respect >yours? But whenever I post, there are only one or two people who do actually answer my posts rationally. Everyone else just screams and rants. That's no way to get me to respect *your* opinions! >> On the other hand, you can leave the women alone and have them >> unrealistically impervious to any kind of injury whatsoever. It's >> one of those charming double binds that us writers have to struggle >> with. > >Personally, I *much* prefer to see women and men >treated equally in >this way. Reading a piece of fiction where I felt >the author was >deliberately being "nicer" to the women because they >were women would >annoy me intensely But take any piece of hurt-comfort fiction at random, switch the sex of the character (e.g. make it Cally not Avon) read it through and see how it sounds. It's not the violence, it's the sadism I don't like. (and note: I said *I* don't like. If you like sadism, that's up to you). Wendy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: fandom
by Helen Krummenacker 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

> My usual retort to those who classify > fandom with trainspotting (ie most of my acquaintance) is that nearly > everyone watches television (some fans less than average), non-fans are > content to sit and watch, while fans try to participate in social and/or > creative ways. > > Tavia Well, put, Tavia! I only watch 3 shows on TV these days, only 2 of which are genre. But I have boxes of videotapes of anime, British comedy, musicals, fav movies and SF. Of which I rewatch maybe 2-3 hours of a week. My currently active fandoms are Blake's 7, which I have stuck in fandom of because I am fascinated by the viewpoints on the list, and Harry Potter, where I have been developing Snape in fanfic and participated in an online version of Hogwarts where I get to relive my glory days of being one of the best students in the school. :)

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Re: suffering
by Helen Krummenacker 20 Feb '01

20 Feb '01

> >If somebody wrote about one of the girls > >being sadistically tortured, there'd be an outcry. > > Well, apart from *three* torture scenes involving women I can think of in > the series offhand (Cally in SLD, Jenna in Horizon, Kasabi in PP), not to > mention that wall scene (RoD), there's an awful lot of fic involving > Servalan torture. May I add, Dayna, Animals; not to mention Dayna's sister in Aftermath.

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